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	<title>Comments on: Referendum roundup – summer 2012</title>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/08/referendum-roundup-summer-2012/#comment-32348</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 11:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2621#comment-32348</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Devo-max sounds great because it sounds like a compromise to some and a best of both worlds to others.

As a compromise I would be willing to consider it if it gave the parliament more powers especially on raising and lowering taxation so that it had more responsibility for the economy as a whole. If we could replace the council tax with something fairer, if we could make strategic tax decisions e.g. make cases for investment knowing that the tax streams would bring more income.

If Devo-Max just became all the worst nonsenses of independence (500-odd government departments duplicated) with none of the actual advantages of independence the I don&#039;t see many people voting for it.

My main concern is that the terms of a 2nd question will be set by supporters of independence rather than by anyone who actually wants Devo-Max. So it is likely to be Indy-minus.

Hidden in all these questions is the murky question of Oil revenues. With even SNP MSPs confusing  - possibly deliberately - the difference between  the value of oil reserves and the royalties that could be earned on them, there is much uncertainty. However despite all the visionary talk of a New and Fairer Scotland, etc, a lot of support for independence is from people who want the &#039;oil money&#039; 

For those people it is not about better services or fairer Scotland it is about getting more for less. If Devo-Max is presented as a &#039;best of both worlds&#039;, you-get-to-stay-in-the-UK-but-keep-the-oil-money then it would have a superficial base attraction. Of course this is well outside the powers of a Scottish Parliament to deliver, especially if the people had overwhelmingly rejected independence so had no bargaining chip.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Devo-max sounds great because it sounds like a compromise to some and a best of both worlds to others.</p>
<p>As a compromise I would be willing to consider it if it gave the parliament more powers especially on raising and lowering taxation so that it had more responsibility for the economy as a whole. If we could replace the council tax with something fairer, if we could make strategic tax decisions e.g. make cases for investment knowing that the tax streams would bring more income.</p>
<p>If Devo-Max just became all the worst nonsenses of independence (500-odd government departments duplicated) with none of the actual advantages of independence the I don&#8217;t see many people voting for it.</p>
<p>My main concern is that the terms of a 2nd question will be set by supporters of independence rather than by anyone who actually wants Devo-Max. So it is likely to be Indy-minus.</p>
<p>Hidden in all these questions is the murky question of Oil revenues. With even SNP MSPs confusing  &#8211; possibly deliberately &#8211; the difference between  the value of oil reserves and the royalties that could be earned on them, there is much uncertainty. However despite all the visionary talk of a New and Fairer Scotland, etc, a lot of support for independence is from people who want the &#8216;oil money&#8217; </p>
<p>For those people it is not about better services or fairer Scotland it is about getting more for less. If Devo-Max is presented as a &#8216;best of both worlds&#8217;, you-get-to-stay-in-the-UK-but-keep-the-oil-money then it would have a superficial base attraction. Of course this is well outside the powers of a Scottish Parliament to deliver, especially if the people had overwhelmingly rejected independence so had no bargaining chip.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/08/referendum-roundup-summer-2012/#comment-32344</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 11:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2621#comment-32344</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The No campaign doesn&#039;t need to fight dirty as the lead is so overwhelming. Why else put &quot;housewives&#039; favourite&quot; Alistair Darling in charge rather than a more feral John Reid, etc?

Apart from non-existent threats to the national institutions such as the football team, rugby team (if only...) and banknotes, there is not much on the horizon that looks like a game-changer. So a manufactured constitutional crisis is a reasonable option.

Of course the hard work would be to persuade people of the case for independence and have thought through the answers to basic questions like currency before calling a referendum. 

The Yes campaign reminds me of Hibs before this year&#039;s cup final: lots of celebrity endorsements, up against a dull establishment, knowing they are probably going to be hammered, but still going for it as they won&#039;t have another chance for 10 years. Then losing 5-1.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The No campaign doesn&#8217;t need to fight dirty as the lead is so overwhelming. Why else put &#8220;housewives&#8217; favourite&#8221; Alistair Darling in charge rather than a more feral John Reid, etc?</p>
<p>Apart from non-existent threats to the national institutions such as the football team, rugby team (if only&#8230;) and banknotes, there is not much on the horizon that looks like a game-changer. So a manufactured constitutional crisis is a reasonable option.</p>
<p>Of course the hard work would be to persuade people of the case for independence and have thought through the answers to basic questions like currency before calling a referendum. </p>
<p>The Yes campaign reminds me of Hibs before this year&#8217;s cup final: lots of celebrity endorsements, up against a dull establishment, knowing they are probably going to be hammered, but still going for it as they won&#8217;t have another chance for 10 years. Then losing 5-1.</p>
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		<title>By: Alasdair Stirling</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/08/referendum-roundup-summer-2012/#comment-32336</link>
		<dc:creator>Alasdair Stirling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 00:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2621#comment-32336</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sad to say, this is a rather ‘happy-clappy’ view of Unionism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sad to say, this is a rather ‘happy-clappy’ view of Unionism.</p>
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		<title>By: Alasdair Stirling</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/08/referendum-roundup-summer-2012/#comment-32335</link>
		<dc:creator>Alasdair Stirling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2621#comment-32335</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One of the key points that I was trying to make is that the Yes campaign has to find a convincing narrative.  This is not the same as having a good argument – indeed there if often no relationship between the argument and the narrative surrounding it.  The build-up of Margret Thatcher prior to the 1979 election is a good case in point.  The idea that as a housewife &#039;handbag&#039; economics gave her an innate understanding of how to manage the economy sold well to working class voters who had grown up in households where the mother ran the family finances.  It was nonsense of course, but it sold well.  The Yes campaign desperately needs a simple and attractive narrative that touches a chord with the electorate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the key points that I was trying to make is that the Yes campaign has to find a convincing narrative.  This is not the same as having a good argument – indeed there if often no relationship between the argument and the narrative surrounding it.  The build-up of Margret Thatcher prior to the 1979 election is a good case in point.  The idea that as a housewife &#8216;handbag&#8217; economics gave her an innate understanding of how to manage the economy sold well to working class voters who had grown up in households where the mother ran the family finances.  It was nonsense of course, but it sold well.  The Yes campaign desperately needs a simple and attractive narrative that touches a chord with the electorate.</p>
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		<title>By: Alasdair Stirling</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/08/referendum-roundup-summer-2012/#comment-32334</link>
		<dc:creator>Alasdair Stirling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2621#comment-32334</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes: one only has to view Ian Davidson&#039;s recent NewsNight outing to see the true character of old-school Unionism.  It is difficult to believe that such people will be much inclined to consider any further devolution of Westminster&#039;s power.  To believe otherwise is naive!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes: one only has to view Ian Davidson&#8217;s recent NewsNight outing to see the true character of old-school Unionism.  It is difficult to believe that such people will be much inclined to consider any further devolution of Westminster&#8217;s power.  To believe otherwise is naive!</p>
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		<title>By: Alasdair Stirling</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/08/referendum-roundup-summer-2012/#comment-32331</link>
		<dc:creator>Alasdair Stirling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:47:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2621#comment-32331</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scotland Act 2012 in-force 2014 -&gt; Referendum Autumn 2014 -&gt; Westminster Election 2015 -&gt; Scottish Election 2016.  Assume that after a No vote the Unionists are minded to consider further devolution.  Given that the following two years are &#039;busy&#039; and it is likely require that the provisions of the current Scotland Act are working, it is only reasonable to assume that they will want approximately 5 years of data.  It is unlikely that they will be much interested in discussing enhanced devolution with the 2020 (UK) and 2021 (Scottish) elections looming.  Therefore if there is to be a Calman Mk2, it will be brought together only after the 2021 election say, 2022.  Calman Mk 1 took 2 years to report, so it is likely that Calman Mk2 would report circa 2024.  Once again, assuming a schedule similar to Calman Mk1, the outgoing UK government draft a green paper that would form part of the 2025 manifesto with the next Scotland Act hitting the statute books circa 2027.  Obviously it could be done much faster, but post a No vote it is unlikely that the Unionists will see much reason to hurry things along.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scotland Act 2012 in-force 2014 -&gt; Referendum Autumn 2014 -&gt; Westminster Election 2015 -&gt; Scottish Election 2016.  Assume that after a No vote the Unionists are minded to consider further devolution.  Given that the following two years are &#8216;busy&#8217; and it is likely require that the provisions of the current Scotland Act are working, it is only reasonable to assume that they will want approximately 5 years of data.  It is unlikely that they will be much interested in discussing enhanced devolution with the 2020 (UK) and 2021 (Scottish) elections looming.  Therefore if there is to be a Calman Mk2, it will be brought together only after the 2021 election say, 2022.  Calman Mk 1 took 2 years to report, so it is likely that Calman Mk2 would report circa 2024.  Once again, assuming a schedule similar to Calman Mk1, the outgoing UK government draft a green paper that would form part of the 2025 manifesto with the next Scotland Act hitting the statute books circa 2027.  Obviously it could be done much faster, but post a No vote it is unlikely that the Unionists will see much reason to hurry things along.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Dunn</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/08/referendum-roundup-summer-2012/#comment-32324</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Dunn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2621#comment-32324</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[“This makes no sense. There is only one Yes Scotland campaign and there was only one launch. Although, of necessity, the SNP had to be heavily involved in getting the organisation going, it was always intended that Yes Scotland would be run independently of the party.”
If that’s the case, then I’m puzzled. Why launch before Blair Jenkns was appointed? As it was, the launch looked (or was spun very well by the unionist press) like an SNP affair. The appointing of Blair Jenkins some weeks later then tends to look like a rethink.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“This makes no sense. There is only one Yes Scotland campaign and there was only one launch. Although, of necessity, the SNP had to be heavily involved in getting the organisation going, it was always intended that Yes Scotland would be run independently of the party.”<br />
If that’s the case, then I’m puzzled. Why launch before Blair Jenkns was appointed? As it was, the launch looked (or was spun very well by the unionist press) like an SNP affair. The appointing of Blair Jenkins some weeks later then tends to look like a rethink.</p>
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		<title>By: Scottish independence/separation: constitutional wrangling meets international law oversight? &#171; basedrones</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/08/referendum-roundup-summer-2012/#comment-32295</link>
		<dc:creator>Scottish independence/separation: constitutional wrangling meets international law oversight? &#171; basedrones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2621#comment-32295</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Let us now assume the referendum is won by the nationalists, which is no small assumption based on current polling indications or musings. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Let us now assume the referendum is won by the nationalists, which is no small assumption based on current polling indications or musings. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Gallagher</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/08/referendum-roundup-summer-2012/#comment-32293</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Gallagher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2621#comment-32293</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is a great article, one that is balanced and considerate and underlines the fault-lines for both campaigns heading into the proper campaigning season the next year will be.

One observation I would make is on the issue of Yes Scotland/SNP/Independence supporter naivety, vis-a-vis the breathtaking cynicism of Westminster/Unionist advocates. We have already seen evidence of this, with Iain Davidson&#039;s unequivocal statement that Parliament in London feels it alone holds the right to grant further powers to the Scottish Parliament, and that it fiercely defends its supervisory right to any and all actions by Parliament in Edinburgh. 

I wonder, though, what the Scottish electorate will make of that. One of Canon Kenyon Wright&#039;s principle themes throughout the Devolution campaign in the 1980s and 1990s was on the principle of Scottish popular sovereignty, and the idea that the unlimited power of Westminster over Scotland was undesirable and needed correction. Since it was the Scottish Constitutional Convention (of which Iain Davidson was a member, ironically) that drafted the manifesto that became the Scotland Act, I would think that argument, that conception of sovereignty is embodied by the very existence of the Holyrood Parliament.

In keeping with your assertion (correct, I believe) that Scots are increasingly inclined towards Holyrood handling their affairs, I think the hardball tactics of Westminster will profoundly alienate many Scottish voters from the No cause. The SCC and Kenyon Wright also spoke a great deal about rejecting the old political culture of Westminster when fashioning their new Parliament, something that - in fits and starts - Holyrood has delivered on. I believe that aspect will prove to be crucial on the Devo-Max issue. Yes Scotland will point to Westminster bully-boy tactics and strike a chord with voters who find them profoundly distasteful.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great article, one that is balanced and considerate and underlines the fault-lines for both campaigns heading into the proper campaigning season the next year will be.</p>
<p>One observation I would make is on the issue of Yes Scotland/SNP/Independence supporter naivety, vis-a-vis the breathtaking cynicism of Westminster/Unionist advocates. We have already seen evidence of this, with Iain Davidson&#8217;s unequivocal statement that Parliament in London feels it alone holds the right to grant further powers to the Scottish Parliament, and that it fiercely defends its supervisory right to any and all actions by Parliament in Edinburgh. </p>
<p>I wonder, though, what the Scottish electorate will make of that. One of Canon Kenyon Wright&#8217;s principle themes throughout the Devolution campaign in the 1980s and 1990s was on the principle of Scottish popular sovereignty, and the idea that the unlimited power of Westminster over Scotland was undesirable and needed correction. Since it was the Scottish Constitutional Convention (of which Iain Davidson was a member, ironically) that drafted the manifesto that became the Scotland Act, I would think that argument, that conception of sovereignty is embodied by the very existence of the Holyrood Parliament.</p>
<p>In keeping with your assertion (correct, I believe) that Scots are increasingly inclined towards Holyrood handling their affairs, I think the hardball tactics of Westminster will profoundly alienate many Scottish voters from the No cause. The SCC and Kenyon Wright also spoke a great deal about rejecting the old political culture of Westminster when fashioning their new Parliament, something that &#8211; in fits and starts &#8211; Holyrood has delivered on. I believe that aspect will prove to be crucial on the Devo-Max issue. Yes Scotland will point to Westminster bully-boy tactics and strike a chord with voters who find them profoundly distasteful.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter A Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/08/referendum-roundup-summer-2012/#comment-32289</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter A Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2621#comment-32289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It has always been envisaged that there would be non-party political campaign organisations - just as there have been in previous referendums. In the Scottish Government&#039;s consultation paper, Your Scotland, Your Referendum, these are referred to as Designated Organisations.

&quot;...I suspect that it’s more likely that they realised pretty quickly that their own YES launch hadn’t started very well...&quot;

This makes no sense. There is only one Yes Scotland campaign and there was only one launch. Although, of necessity, the SNP had to be heavily involved in getting the organisation going, it was always intended that Yes Scotland would be run independently of the party.

I blame the media for the confusion. They persist in conflating Yes Scotland and the SNP for the simple reason that, as you note, politicians/parties are much easier targets for the kind of smear tactics which constitute the principal part of the anti-independence effort.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has always been envisaged that there would be non-party political campaign organisations &#8211; just as there have been in previous referendums. In the Scottish Government&#8217;s consultation paper, Your Scotland, Your Referendum, these are referred to as Designated Organisations.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;I suspect that it’s more likely that they realised pretty quickly that their own YES launch hadn’t started very well&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>This makes no sense. There is only one Yes Scotland campaign and there was only one launch. Although, of necessity, the SNP had to be heavily involved in getting the organisation going, it was always intended that Yes Scotland would be run independently of the party.</p>
<p>I blame the media for the confusion. They persist in conflating Yes Scotland and the SNP for the simple reason that, as you note, politicians/parties are much easier targets for the kind of smear tactics which constitute the principal part of the anti-independence effort.</p>
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