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	<title>Comments on: No second question, but not a defeat for Salmond either</title>
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		<title>By: Indy</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/09/no-second-question-but-not-a-defeat-for-salmond-either/#comment-33915</link>
		<dc:creator>Indy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 20:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2827#comment-33915</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really don&#039;t think it is a question of Alex Salmond and the SNP wanting or not wanting a second question.

Political parties just don&#039;t control things to that extent. They have to play the cards they are dealt. 

Since the concept of Devo Max in some form existed - a halfway house if you like between devolution as we know it now and independence - the SNP had to decide what to do about that. To rule it out, to say independence nothing less, or to say yes OK if there is a substantial body of opinion that wants that option then sure we will consider putting it on the ballot paper.

Remember the reason the SNP left the Constitutional Convention was because the unionist parties had refused to consider putting independence on the ballot paper as an option. If we - the SNP I mean - had said we refuse to even consider anything other than our preferred option it would have made us the same as them. And that was something that no-one wanted to do, it would have made us hypocrites which, believe it or not, our party does try to avoid!

The problem was always the lack of political representation for that particular position.  It wasn&#039;t required for a political party to support it but there had to be political support whether from the trade unions, third sector, whatever section of civic society decided to run with it. But no-one did. There are some people now who are arguing for it but they&#039;re about a year too late.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really don&#8217;t think it is a question of Alex Salmond and the SNP wanting or not wanting a second question.</p>
<p>Political parties just don&#8217;t control things to that extent. They have to play the cards they are dealt. </p>
<p>Since the concept of Devo Max in some form existed &#8211; a halfway house if you like between devolution as we know it now and independence &#8211; the SNP had to decide what to do about that. To rule it out, to say independence nothing less, or to say yes OK if there is a substantial body of opinion that wants that option then sure we will consider putting it on the ballot paper.</p>
<p>Remember the reason the SNP left the Constitutional Convention was because the unionist parties had refused to consider putting independence on the ballot paper as an option. If we &#8211; the SNP I mean &#8211; had said we refuse to even consider anything other than our preferred option it would have made us the same as them. And that was something that no-one wanted to do, it would have made us hypocrites which, believe it or not, our party does try to avoid!</p>
<p>The problem was always the lack of political representation for that particular position.  It wasn&#8217;t required for a political party to support it but there had to be political support whether from the trade unions, third sector, whatever section of civic society decided to run with it. But no-one did. There are some people now who are arguing for it but they&#8217;re about a year too late.</p>
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		<title>By: Allan</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/09/no-second-question-but-not-a-defeat-for-salmond-either/#comment-33905</link>
		<dc:creator>Allan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2827#comment-33905</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know if Salmond wanted a question on &quot;Devo-max&quot;, I suspect he was being pragmatic given that this option polls higher than both the status quo and Independence.  Salmond&#039;s problem is that &quot;Devo-max&quot; has been painted as his own Plan B should &quot;Scotland&quot; vote No.  Even you Jeff have used the phrase &quot;consolation prize&quot; in relation to Devo Max in the above post.

Whether this is a defeat for Salmond or not kind of depends on a lot of factors.  I suspect that if there is a no vote, then Salmond could conceivably heap a lot of pressure on the pro-Union parties to provide solid gold pledges on further devolution - just in time for the May 2015 Westminster Election.  I have already said that I think that the hangover from a no vote will be bitter and nasty.  

In the meantime, &quot;Yes Scotland&quot; will really have to up their game to convince the many &quot;Don&#039;t Knows&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if Salmond wanted a question on &#8220;Devo-max&#8221;, I suspect he was being pragmatic given that this option polls higher than both the status quo and Independence.  Salmond&#8217;s problem is that &#8220;Devo-max&#8221; has been painted as his own Plan B should &#8220;Scotland&#8221; vote No.  Even you Jeff have used the phrase &#8220;consolation prize&#8221; in relation to Devo Max in the above post.</p>
<p>Whether this is a defeat for Salmond or not kind of depends on a lot of factors.  I suspect that if there is a no vote, then Salmond could conceivably heap a lot of pressure on the pro-Union parties to provide solid gold pledges on further devolution &#8211; just in time for the May 2015 Westminster Election.  I have already said that I think that the hangover from a no vote will be bitter and nasty.  </p>
<p>In the meantime, &#8220;Yes Scotland&#8221; will really have to up their game to convince the many &#8220;Don&#8217;t Knows&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Allan</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/09/no-second-question-but-not-a-defeat-for-salmond-either/#comment-33903</link>
		<dc:creator>Allan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2827#comment-33903</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah, but isn&#039;t there a Westminster Election six months after the Referendum.  Plenty of time for supporters of Devo Max to press their representitives for concessions.  After all, they do want our vote come May 2015 don&#039;t they?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, but isn&#8217;t there a Westminster Election six months after the Referendum.  Plenty of time for supporters of Devo Max to press their representitives for concessions.  After all, they do want our vote come May 2015 don&#8217;t they?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/09/no-second-question-but-not-a-defeat-for-salmond-either/#comment-33902</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2827#comment-33902</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Andrew, I think you are correct but it will take those of us in both camps who are willing to build bridges and find common cause to make that happen. We can&#039;t repeat the failures of 1978. Unfortunately the threat of Independence would be a busted flush in the event of a No vote and our only real hope of change would be to do the hard work to persuade on the moral and democratic cases.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, I think you are correct but it will take those of us in both camps who are willing to build bridges and find common cause to make that happen. We can&#8217;t repeat the failures of 1978. Unfortunately the threat of Independence would be a busted flush in the event of a No vote and our only real hope of change would be to do the hard work to persuade on the moral and democratic cases.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/09/no-second-question-but-not-a-defeat-for-salmond-either/#comment-33898</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2827#comment-33898</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think Salmond has ever been supportive of a second question, but it is obvious that a number of SNP members (and possibly MSPs) are. What the last few months have done is sound out the support (or perceived lack of) and paint the unionists as being too stubborn to consider any change.

I&#039;m not convinced by the &#039;jam tomorrow&#039; argument. The difference between the1970s and now is the existence of the Scottish Parliament. I fully expect that all of the NO parties will go into the referendum promising extra powers for a NO vote, and I expect that they&#039;ll have to mean it, because in the result of a NO vote then it would be electoral suicide not to give them. Regardless of the result the parliament will only become more powerful.

I support a YES vote, but I&#039;m not sure that a NO vote would be the end of reform.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Salmond has ever been supportive of a second question, but it is obvious that a number of SNP members (and possibly MSPs) are. What the last few months have done is sound out the support (or perceived lack of) and paint the unionists as being too stubborn to consider any change.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not convinced by the &#8216;jam tomorrow&#8217; argument. The difference between the1970s and now is the existence of the Scottish Parliament. I fully expect that all of the NO parties will go into the referendum promising extra powers for a NO vote, and I expect that they&#8217;ll have to mean it, because in the result of a NO vote then it would be electoral suicide not to give them. Regardless of the result the parliament will only become more powerful.</p>
<p>I support a YES vote, but I&#8217;m not sure that a NO vote would be the end of reform.</p>
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		<title>By: Arbroath 1320</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/09/no-second-question-but-not-a-defeat-for-salmond-either/#comment-33887</link>
		<dc:creator>Arbroath 1320</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2827#comment-33887</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Alex Salmond has played an exceptionally canny game over this ONE question/TWO question issue.

Firstly, it has been widely reported in numerous papers over the months that there was a significant number of Scots who would want a second question.

Secondly by offering to have a second question on the ballot paper A.S. has played a blinder in my view. He knows a second question is what a significant number of people want and he has, in effect, said to the Bitter camp THIS is what the people of Scotland want. If you can come up with a reasoned argument FOR the Devo max option then I&#039;ll give YOU that option on the ballot. Unfortunately for the Bitter camp they are all TOO focused on their hatred of A.S. to see the prize he is offering them. 

Third. A.S. has ALWAYS said that the S.N.P. were only ever interested in Independence. Therefore any action to fight for the votes of the electorate to be counted FOR Devo max HAD to come from another source. Now everyone knows that the status quo is nOT an option. Therefore, you would have thought that one or more of the opposition parties would have jumped at the chance to get one over on A.S. The fact that NO ONE has jumped onto the Devo max bandwagon tells me that ALL the opposition parties are quite happy with the status quo, something the ELECTORATE  are not.

If, as increasingly seems likely, there is only one question on the ballot paper then I feel certain that the majority of voters who wanted Devo max will transfer their votes over to the YES camp. Furthermore, I believe that A.S. will now have yet ANOTHER weapon in his armoury to beat the Bitter camp with, namely the reasoning that he wanted to offer a second question but was denied by Westminster. I yhink everyone realises that this sort of reasoning will do wonders for the YES vote and almost certainly sink, once and for all, the Bitter camp.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Alex Salmond has played an exceptionally canny game over this ONE question/TWO question issue.</p>
<p>Firstly, it has been widely reported in numerous papers over the months that there was a significant number of Scots who would want a second question.</p>
<p>Secondly by offering to have a second question on the ballot paper A.S. has played a blinder in my view. He knows a second question is what a significant number of people want and he has, in effect, said to the Bitter camp THIS is what the people of Scotland want. If you can come up with a reasoned argument FOR the Devo max option then I&#8217;ll give YOU that option on the ballot. Unfortunately for the Bitter camp they are all TOO focused on their hatred of A.S. to see the prize he is offering them. </p>
<p>Third. A.S. has ALWAYS said that the S.N.P. were only ever interested in Independence. Therefore any action to fight for the votes of the electorate to be counted FOR Devo max HAD to come from another source. Now everyone knows that the status quo is nOT an option. Therefore, you would have thought that one or more of the opposition parties would have jumped at the chance to get one over on A.S. The fact that NO ONE has jumped onto the Devo max bandwagon tells me that ALL the opposition parties are quite happy with the status quo, something the ELECTORATE  are not.</p>
<p>If, as increasingly seems likely, there is only one question on the ballot paper then I feel certain that the majority of voters who wanted Devo max will transfer their votes over to the YES camp. Furthermore, I believe that A.S. will now have yet ANOTHER weapon in his armoury to beat the Bitter camp with, namely the reasoning that he wanted to offer a second question but was denied by Westminster. I yhink everyone realises that this sort of reasoning will do wonders for the YES vote and almost certainly sink, once and for all, the Bitter camp.</p>
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		<title>By: Alasdair Frew-Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/09/no-second-question-but-not-a-defeat-for-salmond-either/#comment-33883</link>
		<dc:creator>Alasdair Frew-Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2827#comment-33883</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A variable that may need to be factored into this is the extent of recrudescent English nationalism. The aggressive UKIP wedge chipping away at Cameron&#039;s support and the possibility of Boris Johnson returning to the mainstream Conservative machine could well alter the scenario in the next two years. A Salmond rampant, may he live a thousand years!, would suit that situation perfectly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A variable that may need to be factored into this is the extent of recrudescent English nationalism. The aggressive UKIP wedge chipping away at Cameron&#8217;s support and the possibility of Boris Johnson returning to the mainstream Conservative machine could well alter the scenario in the next two years. A Salmond rampant, may he live a thousand years!, would suit that situation perfectly.</p>
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		<title>By: An Duine Gruamach</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/09/no-second-question-but-not-a-defeat-for-salmond-either/#comment-33882</link>
		<dc:creator>An Duine Gruamach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2827#comment-33882</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think it&#039;s really possible to consider the &quot;did he/ didn&#039;t he want Devo Max on the ballot&quot; issue without looking at what the SNP&#039;s plans for Independence Day + 1 actually are.  The fact that at least in the short term we would keep the monarchy, sterling etc. clearly makes independence a more palatable prospect for those who are in favour of more powers.  If all they have to choose from is the status quo on the one hand and &quot;not very radical big scary nasty separation&quot; on the other, then the chances of a Yes vote are that much higher.  

Meanwhile, those who do support a more radical version of independence know that this less-radical version is still better than what we have now, and once the principle has been accepted that it&#039;s up to us to make the decisions, it&#039;s much easier to dismantle certain institutions on the other side of the Yes vote than before.

I can imagine the FM allowed himself a wee smirk when he read the papers this morning.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s really possible to consider the &#8220;did he/ didn&#8217;t he want Devo Max on the ballot&#8221; issue without looking at what the SNP&#8217;s plans for Independence Day + 1 actually are.  The fact that at least in the short term we would keep the monarchy, sterling etc. clearly makes independence a more palatable prospect for those who are in favour of more powers.  If all they have to choose from is the status quo on the one hand and &#8220;not very radical big scary nasty separation&#8221; on the other, then the chances of a Yes vote are that much higher.  </p>
<p>Meanwhile, those who do support a more radical version of independence know that this less-radical version is still better than what we have now, and once the principle has been accepted that it&#8217;s up to us to make the decisions, it&#8217;s much easier to dismantle certain institutions on the other side of the Yes vote than before.</p>
<p>I can imagine the FM allowed himself a wee smirk when he read the papers this morning.</p>
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		<title>By: Cath</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/09/no-second-question-but-not-a-defeat-for-salmond-either/#comment-33874</link>
		<dc:creator>Cath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:06:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2827#comment-33874</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As well as the two given options – Salmond wanted the 2nd question and has lost or Salmond didn’t want it and has won, cleverly boxing in the opposition parties – there is also a third possibility. That is, that the opposition parties, or at least the Tories and possibly Lib Dems, genuinely don’t want more devolution, more years of wrangling with the Scottish parliament and passing more legislation like the Scotland Act which doesn’t go far enough. Hence they might be genuine about a straight yes/no: either independence or the status quo. If this is the case, it makes for an interesting problem for them. If they genuinely would prefer full independence to more devolution, what would happen in the event of a – likely very close – no vote? 

That result wouldn’t help, as there would still be a Scottish parliament, likely controlled by the SNP. If labour carries on as they are, this could even be bolstered by a larger SNP cohort at Westminster. So they’d still be being pushed for more powers. Either they’d have to try and meet these demands, against an even angrier, more recalcitrant Scottish population than now, with a large number disappointed and agitating for more (including all the devo-max folk as well as the 1 in 3 who support independence). Or they’d have to clip the wings of the Scottish parliament and re-assert their own power against it, on the grounds that “the Scottish electorate re-asserted Westminster’s dominance over Holyrood”. If they’re genuine about not wanting the hassle of more devolution, the first wouldn’t be what they want, but the second sounds highly problematic.

So if they are genuine about preferring full independence to more devolution, it might be better for them to bite the bullet and quietly work with the Scottish government on negotiations now, while helping to create a consensus for a yes vote that makes it a clear result. That could be a better option for them, and Britain as a whole, than years more wrangling and a knife-edge result to a straight yes/no. If that was their thinking all along, the conclusion would have to be that Labour have been well and truly taken in with Better Together and “joining with the Tories” to fight against it. Two birds with one stone for the Tories – get rid of Scotland and seriously damage Labour into the bargain.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As well as the two given options – Salmond wanted the 2nd question and has lost or Salmond didn’t want it and has won, cleverly boxing in the opposition parties – there is also a third possibility. That is, that the opposition parties, or at least the Tories and possibly Lib Dems, genuinely don’t want more devolution, more years of wrangling with the Scottish parliament and passing more legislation like the Scotland Act which doesn’t go far enough. Hence they might be genuine about a straight yes/no: either independence or the status quo. If this is the case, it makes for an interesting problem for them. If they genuinely would prefer full independence to more devolution, what would happen in the event of a – likely very close – no vote? </p>
<p>That result wouldn’t help, as there would still be a Scottish parliament, likely controlled by the SNP. If labour carries on as they are, this could even be bolstered by a larger SNP cohort at Westminster. So they’d still be being pushed for more powers. Either they’d have to try and meet these demands, against an even angrier, more recalcitrant Scottish population than now, with a large number disappointed and agitating for more (including all the devo-max folk as well as the 1 in 3 who support independence). Or they’d have to clip the wings of the Scottish parliament and re-assert their own power against it, on the grounds that “the Scottish electorate re-asserted Westminster’s dominance over Holyrood”. If they’re genuine about not wanting the hassle of more devolution, the first wouldn’t be what they want, but the second sounds highly problematic.</p>
<p>So if they are genuine about preferring full independence to more devolution, it might be better for them to bite the bullet and quietly work with the Scottish government on negotiations now, while helping to create a consensus for a yes vote that makes it a clear result. That could be a better option for them, and Britain as a whole, than years more wrangling and a knife-edge result to a straight yes/no. If that was their thinking all along, the conclusion would have to be that Labour have been well and truly taken in with Better Together and “joining with the Tories” to fight against it. Two birds with one stone for the Tories – get rid of Scotland and seriously damage Labour into the bargain.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/09/no-second-question-but-not-a-defeat-for-salmond-either/#comment-33865</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2012 11:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2827#comment-33865</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I genuinely don&#039;t think Salmond actually wanted a second question. Maybe I&#039;m being naive there, but everyone knows that, given a choice between independence, the status quo, and a middle option, the middle option would win. We&#039;d win some more powers, which would obviously be welcomed by anyone who wants self-determination for Scotland, but it would put independence off the agenda for the next few parliamentary terms - long past Salmond&#039;s stewardship of the party.

If Salmond really is the egotist that his critics accuse him of being, then he would want to be the man who brought independence to Scotland, and he would certainly believe in his own hype enough to think that he could do it. We all know a perfect storm is brewing - the most hapless, disastrous and damaging UK government in living memory (if not longer), a stagnating economy that is going nowhere fast, cuts to public services, no prospects of parliamentary or electoral reform at UK level, and despite all this - with the Labour party led by a man who looks and sounds like he still gets wedgied every day - it looks increasingly likely that the Tories will bafflingly win a second term.

If we can&#039;t win an independence referendum under those circumstances, then we never will. Salmond would have to be mad to pass up this opportunity, and even his critics admit he&#039;s a shrewd operator. I think you just have to witness Salmond gein it laldy on Saturday to know that this is a man who is completely committed to winning a YES vote.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I genuinely don&#8217;t think Salmond actually wanted a second question. Maybe I&#8217;m being naive there, but everyone knows that, given a choice between independence, the status quo, and a middle option, the middle option would win. We&#8217;d win some more powers, which would obviously be welcomed by anyone who wants self-determination for Scotland, but it would put independence off the agenda for the next few parliamentary terms &#8211; long past Salmond&#8217;s stewardship of the party.</p>
<p>If Salmond really is the egotist that his critics accuse him of being, then he would want to be the man who brought independence to Scotland, and he would certainly believe in his own hype enough to think that he could do it. We all know a perfect storm is brewing &#8211; the most hapless, disastrous and damaging UK government in living memory (if not longer), a stagnating economy that is going nowhere fast, cuts to public services, no prospects of parliamentary or electoral reform at UK level, and despite all this &#8211; with the Labour party led by a man who looks and sounds like he still gets wedgied every day &#8211; it looks increasingly likely that the Tories will bafflingly win a second term.</p>
<p>If we can&#8217;t win an independence referendum under those circumstances, then we never will. Salmond would have to be mad to pass up this opportunity, and even his critics admit he&#8217;s a shrewd operator. I think you just have to witness Salmond gein it laldy on Saturday to know that this is a man who is completely committed to winning a YES vote.</p>
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