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	<title>Comments on: An Eton Mess could help Salmond find his sweet spot</title>
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		<title>By: Indy</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/an-eton-mess-could-help-salmond-find-his-sweet-spot/#comment-35200</link>
		<dc:creator>Indy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 18:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2857#comment-35200</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the idea that after a No vote there would be some kind of strengthening or extending of devolution is kind of pie in the sky. If Scotland votes No then that&#039;s pretty much it for the foreseeable future - the next 20 or 30 years or so.

Power concedes nothing without a demand. Devolution was conceded due to demand, not because the Westminster government decided it would be nice. And the demand was backed up by the &quot;threat&quot; as Westminster would see it of independence. With that threat gone - as it would be with a No vote - whatever demand still exists can safely be ignored. Why would they pay attention to it? They can validly say Scots voted to stay in the UK. The very fact that there is no &quot;second question&quot; is indicative of that. It has become a binary choice. Status quo or independence. There is no halfway house on offer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the idea that after a No vote there would be some kind of strengthening or extending of devolution is kind of pie in the sky. If Scotland votes No then that&#8217;s pretty much it for the foreseeable future &#8211; the next 20 or 30 years or so.</p>
<p>Power concedes nothing without a demand. Devolution was conceded due to demand, not because the Westminster government decided it would be nice. And the demand was backed up by the &#8220;threat&#8221; as Westminster would see it of independence. With that threat gone &#8211; as it would be with a No vote &#8211; whatever demand still exists can safely be ignored. Why would they pay attention to it? They can validly say Scots voted to stay in the UK. The very fact that there is no &#8220;second question&#8221; is indicative of that. It has become a binary choice. Status quo or independence. There is no halfway house on offer.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Buchan</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/an-eton-mess-could-help-salmond-find-his-sweet-spot/#comment-35197</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Buchan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 17:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2857#comment-35197</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well said. But the Catalans have also gone through a process. Developments have slowly led them to feeling more confident. One is through the growing sense of confidence fostered by the Catalonian language policy in their schooling. It takes time and a process for any nation to feel able to contemplate this order of change.

Scotland lack of cultural confidence has many historic causes and unlike Catalonia Scotland has many different cultures. The culture of Shetland is very different from the culture of Glasgow or yet again from the culture of Lewis. I personally think there needs to be more encouragement of all off these different cultures as each represents an aspect of Scottishness.

But it&#039;s a two way thing. Catalonian confidence is linked to the decline in identification with Madrid. Scots have also come a long way it’s just that we tend to take it for granted. Who would have imaged devolution during the dark days of Thatcherism, or a SNP majority, or the wipe out of the Tories and recent decline of Labour. 

If Catalonia breaks free then the whole dynamic inside the EU changes. As a news item on Catalonia said they have already managed to get a source inside the Commission to admit that there is no mechanism for a part of the EU reapplying to become a member. In other words all the stuff about having to leave the EU and reapply is just bluster.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said. But the Catalans have also gone through a process. Developments have slowly led them to feeling more confident. One is through the growing sense of confidence fostered by the Catalonian language policy in their schooling. It takes time and a process for any nation to feel able to contemplate this order of change.</p>
<p>Scotland lack of cultural confidence has many historic causes and unlike Catalonia Scotland has many different cultures. The culture of Shetland is very different from the culture of Glasgow or yet again from the culture of Lewis. I personally think there needs to be more encouragement of all off these different cultures as each represents an aspect of Scottishness.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s a two way thing. Catalonian confidence is linked to the decline in identification with Madrid. Scots have also come a long way it’s just that we tend to take it for granted. Who would have imaged devolution during the dark days of Thatcherism, or a SNP majority, or the wipe out of the Tories and recent decline of Labour. </p>
<p>If Catalonia breaks free then the whole dynamic inside the EU changes. As a news item on Catalonia said they have already managed to get a source inside the Commission to admit that there is no mechanism for a part of the EU reapplying to become a member. In other words all the stuff about having to leave the EU and reapply is just bluster.</p>
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		<title>By: Iain Menzies</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/an-eton-mess-could-help-salmond-find-his-sweet-spot/#comment-35193</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain Menzies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 14:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2857#comment-35193</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[River City....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>River City&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Indy</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/an-eton-mess-could-help-salmond-find-his-sweet-spot/#comment-35156</link>
		<dc:creator>Indy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 07:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2857#comment-35156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes but we know part of the reason in 2010 that Labour swept up the vote so convincingly is that the SNP forgot to slag off the Tories. It&#039;s something we have overlooked at times because it is so obvious. You tend to assume people know the SNP oppose the Tories and of course people who are closely interested in politics know that. But most voters aren&#039;t that interested, they don&#039;t follow every twist and turn so you need  a certain amount of repitition to establish a point.  Which is - I fully accept - boring and uninspiring for those who do follow the political game closely.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes but we know part of the reason in 2010 that Labour swept up the vote so convincingly is that the SNP forgot to slag off the Tories. It&#8217;s something we have overlooked at times because it is so obvious. You tend to assume people know the SNP oppose the Tories and of course people who are closely interested in politics know that. But most voters aren&#8217;t that interested, they don&#8217;t follow every twist and turn so you need  a certain amount of repitition to establish a point.  Which is &#8211; I fully accept &#8211; boring and uninspiring for those who do follow the political game closely.</p>
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		<title>By: Alasdair Frew-Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/an-eton-mess-could-help-salmond-find-his-sweet-spot/#comment-35110</link>
		<dc:creator>Alasdair Frew-Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 21:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2857#comment-35110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A big problem is that the Scots&#039; sense of national identity is quite weak. Few bother or care about the history and real culture of the country they inhabit, preferring the artificial Corrie and &#039;Enders variety. That there isn&#039;t a Scottish equivalent seems not to trouble. We are quite content to consume &quot;foreign pap&quot;. The contrast with Catalonia couldn&#039;t be more stark. A nationalist movement driven by the young, proud of their ethnicity, their language and their particular cultural perspective. They get a million plus on to the streets and give the leaders of the Spanish state a fright. They are prepared to FIGHT for their independence, regardless of cost, and manifest a powerful resolve to see the process through to a successful conclusion. They don&#039;t want the monarchy, don&#039;t want to remain Spanish and don&#039;t want an independent Catalonia to be like the old provincial Catalonia. Hope there will be Catalans at the SNP shindig. Its time the nats grew some real cojones.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A big problem is that the Scots&#8217; sense of national identity is quite weak. Few bother or care about the history and real culture of the country they inhabit, preferring the artificial Corrie and &#8216;Enders variety. That there isn&#8217;t a Scottish equivalent seems not to trouble. We are quite content to consume &#8220;foreign pap&#8221;. The contrast with Catalonia couldn&#8217;t be more stark. A nationalist movement driven by the young, proud of their ethnicity, their language and their particular cultural perspective. They get a million plus on to the streets and give the leaders of the Spanish state a fright. They are prepared to FIGHT for their independence, regardless of cost, and manifest a powerful resolve to see the process through to a successful conclusion. They don&#8217;t want the monarchy, don&#8217;t want to remain Spanish and don&#8217;t want an independent Catalonia to be like the old provincial Catalonia. Hope there will be Catalans at the SNP shindig. Its time the nats grew some real cojones.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Buchan</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/an-eton-mess-could-help-salmond-find-his-sweet-spot/#comment-35105</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Buchan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2857#comment-35105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am also a yes voter and I don&#039;t think of myself as pessimistic. I do, however, despair of the &quot;wha&#039;s like us!&quot; mentality that causes us to habitually underestimate our opponents. 

My point is that Alex Salmond&#039;s declared aim is bound to fail because the internal dynamics within the SNP meant that he had no choice but to push for a referendum even though we Scots are not yet ready to make that leap. 

But, on the other hand, the British State is weaker now than ever it has been. The British establishment is likely to see off the referendum and will tighten things up to avoid this happening this way again but they can&#039;t escape the basic decline of Britishness.

For example, English Votes for English Laws will weaken Britishness but can&#039;t be avoided unless they go for an English Parliament, but an English Parliament would soon challenge the UK Parliaments authority. Every way they turn presents dangers.

This is why Thatcher and Major held out against devolution, because once you start unravelling the British Constitution it falls apart because for historical reasons Britain was hamstrung in forming a proper British nation and instead had to allow Scotland its distinct institutions.

My hope for the future lies in the tide of history which is running against Britain as a state, just as it is running against Spain. The Catalans have been emboldened by Alex Salmond and we will be emboldened by Catalonia as it pulls away from Spain. There is little Spain or Britain can do to stop this general trend. 

In fact the contradictions of Britain are all around us to see. Since devolution England has moved inexorably to the right, while Scotland, Wales and N.I. have not. The pulling apart is on both sides. Eventually politics will catch up and Britain will become less and less meaningful as a political concept. When we separate it will seem natural. It doesn’t yet, which is why I feel we’ve some way to go.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am also a yes voter and I don&#8217;t think of myself as pessimistic. I do, however, despair of the &#8220;wha&#8217;s like us!&#8221; mentality that causes us to habitually underestimate our opponents. </p>
<p>My point is that Alex Salmond&#8217;s declared aim is bound to fail because the internal dynamics within the SNP meant that he had no choice but to push for a referendum even though we Scots are not yet ready to make that leap. </p>
<p>But, on the other hand, the British State is weaker now than ever it has been. The British establishment is likely to see off the referendum and will tighten things up to avoid this happening this way again but they can&#8217;t escape the basic decline of Britishness.</p>
<p>For example, English Votes for English Laws will weaken Britishness but can&#8217;t be avoided unless they go for an English Parliament, but an English Parliament would soon challenge the UK Parliaments authority. Every way they turn presents dangers.</p>
<p>This is why Thatcher and Major held out against devolution, because once you start unravelling the British Constitution it falls apart because for historical reasons Britain was hamstrung in forming a proper British nation and instead had to allow Scotland its distinct institutions.</p>
<p>My hope for the future lies in the tide of history which is running against Britain as a state, just as it is running against Spain. The Catalans have been emboldened by Alex Salmond and we will be emboldened by Catalonia as it pulls away from Spain. There is little Spain or Britain can do to stop this general trend. </p>
<p>In fact the contradictions of Britain are all around us to see. Since devolution England has moved inexorably to the right, while Scotland, Wales and N.I. have not. The pulling apart is on both sides. Eventually politics will catch up and Britain will become less and less meaningful as a political concept. When we separate it will seem natural. It doesn’t yet, which is why I feel we’ve some way to go.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Achie</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/an-eton-mess-could-help-salmond-find-his-sweet-spot/#comment-35095</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Achie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2857#comment-35095</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is a marathon, but it doesn&#039;t start until the deal is signed and the SNP conference kicks off the party&#039;s yes campaign next week.  Devo Max isn&#039;t out of the game at all, it&#039;s just been sidlined.  And history doesn&#039;t repeat itself, as in exactly the same thing never happens again, if only because it happened before, so the circumstances cannot be the same!

So much for the philosophy, and it looks like Alex Salmond has played a blinder.  What the SNP wants - as in the vast majority of the SNP&#039;s membership - is a straight yes-no referendum.  Alex Salmond has lead the SNP for half his adult life.  Having shown gradualism works, with his 2011 parliamentary majority at Holyrood, he is delivering what he was appointed by the membership to do.

Britain isn&#039;t a liberal democracy any more, and is suffering an increasingly rightward drift under a governmental elite that has mediocrity at its heart.  Scotland doesn&#039;t have to be like that, and all the indications are that the majority of Scots prefer the SNP&#039;s approach, based on a social-democratic analysis of society, and the values that implies.

RUK desperately needs reform, but despite the Lib-Dem veneer (as in paper thin!) what it has currently is actually a very reactionary government that has no vision of where it wants to go, but just wants to protect entrenched privilege, and will happily sit out decline on that basis.  Just read George Orwell - he wasn&#039;t just another old Etonian!

PS - done a spell check this time!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a marathon, but it doesn&#8217;t start until the deal is signed and the SNP conference kicks off the party&#8217;s yes campaign next week.  Devo Max isn&#8217;t out of the game at all, it&#8217;s just been sidlined.  And history doesn&#8217;t repeat itself, as in exactly the same thing never happens again, if only because it happened before, so the circumstances cannot be the same!</p>
<p>So much for the philosophy, and it looks like Alex Salmond has played a blinder.  What the SNP wants &#8211; as in the vast majority of the SNP&#8217;s membership &#8211; is a straight yes-no referendum.  Alex Salmond has lead the SNP for half his adult life.  Having shown gradualism works, with his 2011 parliamentary majority at Holyrood, he is delivering what he was appointed by the membership to do.</p>
<p>Britain isn&#8217;t a liberal democracy any more, and is suffering an increasingly rightward drift under a governmental elite that has mediocrity at its heart.  Scotland doesn&#8217;t have to be like that, and all the indications are that the majority of Scots prefer the SNP&#8217;s approach, based on a social-democratic analysis of society, and the values that implies.</p>
<p>RUK desperately needs reform, but despite the Lib-Dem veneer (as in paper thin!) what it has currently is actually a very reactionary government that has no vision of where it wants to go, but just wants to protect entrenched privilege, and will happily sit out decline on that basis.  Just read George Orwell &#8211; he wasn&#8217;t just another old Etonian!</p>
<p>PS &#8211; done a spell check this time!</p>
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		<title>By: Commenter</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/an-eton-mess-could-help-salmond-find-his-sweet-spot/#comment-35089</link>
		<dc:creator>Commenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:10:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2857#comment-35089</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a yes voter, this comment appeals hugely to my pessimistic nature. I think it&#039;s a pretty spot-on analysis of the current situation (refreshingly side-stepping all the usual guff lauding Salmond&#039;s Machiavellian Brer Rabbit gambit to &#039;fool&#039; the Unionists into a straight one-question referendum).
It is also a plausible projection of what&#039;s in store after a no vote (which I believe is currently *highly* likely and I can&#039;t see that changing).

I&#039;m not a subscriber to the &#039;independence is inevitable&#039; theory, and believe that the process of assimilation runs in parallel to any process of &#039;increased confidence&#039;. Ah well, there you go.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a yes voter, this comment appeals hugely to my pessimistic nature. I think it&#8217;s a pretty spot-on analysis of the current situation (refreshingly side-stepping all the usual guff lauding Salmond&#8217;s Machiavellian Brer Rabbit gambit to &#8216;fool&#8217; the Unionists into a straight one-question referendum).<br />
It is also a plausible projection of what&#8217;s in store after a no vote (which I believe is currently *highly* likely and I can&#8217;t see that changing).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a subscriber to the &#8216;independence is inevitable&#8217; theory, and believe that the process of assimilation runs in parallel to any process of &#8216;increased confidence&#8217;. Ah well, there you go.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Buchan</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/an-eton-mess-could-help-salmond-find-his-sweet-spot/#comment-35074</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Buchan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2857#comment-35074</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is not so much cynicism on my part as a reflection of what goes on behind the scenes. Cameron and the unionist parties in general think that Salmond has made a monumental error in going for a referendum he can&#039;t win. 

They are going to seize the opportunity to try to see off the SNP for good. Cameron&#039;s behaviour needs to be seen in that light. He sees all this as giving Salmond enough rope to hang himself. If the concede all of Salmond&#039;s demands and gets a straight yes no vote then they calculate Salmond will have nowhere to hide after the referendum. He won&#039;t be able to blame the British State because it bent over backwards.

All of Cameron&#039;s actions are focussed on what happens after the referendum is defeated. As I say above they plan with their idea f a British Constitutional Convention to get a much more rigorous constitution that will make the SNP&#039;s room for manoeuvre more restricted. They also hope the new tax raising powers will favour the Tories as they can campaign in Scotland on a low tax ticket and also favour more traditional class politics i.e., Labour versus Tories.

We&#039;ll see if it pans out as they hope but one thing’s for sure, all of the British establishment including the Scottish wing (think BBC, press, unionist parties) will pile opprobrium on Salmond after the referendum and there will be a concerted effort to bolster British National identity and to rubbish Scottish Nationalism as a philosophy that the Scottish people have rejected.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is not so much cynicism on my part as a reflection of what goes on behind the scenes. Cameron and the unionist parties in general think that Salmond has made a monumental error in going for a referendum he can&#8217;t win. </p>
<p>They are going to seize the opportunity to try to see off the SNP for good. Cameron&#8217;s behaviour needs to be seen in that light. He sees all this as giving Salmond enough rope to hang himself. If the concede all of Salmond&#8217;s demands and gets a straight yes no vote then they calculate Salmond will have nowhere to hide after the referendum. He won&#8217;t be able to blame the British State because it bent over backwards.</p>
<p>All of Cameron&#8217;s actions are focussed on what happens after the referendum is defeated. As I say above they plan with their idea f a British Constitutional Convention to get a much more rigorous constitution that will make the SNP&#8217;s room for manoeuvre more restricted. They also hope the new tax raising powers will favour the Tories as they can campaign in Scotland on a low tax ticket and also favour more traditional class politics i.e., Labour versus Tories.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ll see if it pans out as they hope but one thing’s for sure, all of the British establishment including the Scottish wing (think BBC, press, unionist parties) will pile opprobrium on Salmond after the referendum and there will be a concerted effort to bolster British National identity and to rubbish Scottish Nationalism as a philosophy that the Scottish people have rejected.</p>
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		<title>By: R.G. Bargie</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/an-eton-mess-could-help-salmond-find-his-sweet-spot/#comment-35068</link>
		<dc:creator>R.G. Bargie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2857#comment-35068</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;There is admittedly a risk that the SNP’s challenge becomes the unachievable winning a referendum and winning the an independent Scotland’s first election, but more is certainly required than the current performance.&quot;

Despite ignoring the &quot;the an&quot; typo and reading this sentence a dozen times, I have no idea what it&#039;s supposed to mean. It APPEARS to say that it&#039;s somehow impossible for the SNP to win both the referendum and the 2016 Holyrood election, which would be a baffling assessment. What&#039;s it meant to say?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There is admittedly a risk that the SNP’s challenge becomes the unachievable winning a referendum and winning the an independent Scotland’s first election, but more is certainly required than the current performance.&#8221;</p>
<p>Despite ignoring the &#8220;the an&#8221; typo and reading this sentence a dozen times, I have no idea what it&#8217;s supposed to mean. It APPEARS to say that it&#8217;s somehow impossible for the SNP to win both the referendum and the 2016 Holyrood election, which would be a baffling assessment. What&#8217;s it meant to say?</p>
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