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	<title>Comments on: The Goldilocks referendum</title>
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	<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/the-goldilocks-referendum/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=the-goldilocks-referendum</link>
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		<title>By: Mister Stan</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/the-goldilocks-referendum/#comment-35351</link>
		<dc:creator>Mister Stan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:58:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2879#comment-35351</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[KBW, since you seem to be getting absolutely everything hilariously wrong here I thought I&#039;d check out your website / blog. You&#039;re a funny guy! I especially love the adverts for 20-something asian wives and girlfriends... so post modern... so ironic... not backwards at all...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KBW, since you seem to be getting absolutely everything hilariously wrong here I thought I&#8217;d check out your website / blog. You&#8217;re a funny guy! I especially love the adverts for 20-something asian wives and girlfriends&#8230; so post modern&#8230; so ironic&#8230; not backwards at all&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Buchan</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/the-goldilocks-referendum/#comment-35334</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Buchan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2879#comment-35334</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I followed the link to Ian Smart&#039;s blog. Pretty opaque stuff, which is a pity because in an earlier blog piece he made a very important and non-partisan point, the fact that it wasn&#039;t taken up shows in my view just how infantile Scottish political blogging is. The point he made was that having the question asked, in a referendum, whether Scotland should be independent does not further the process of Scotland&#039;s development since the start of the devolution process. In fact, it threatens that process because if the referendum is lost the UK government and press will take that as a vote of confidence in the UK and will want to use it to strengthen the UK and clamp down on any further dispersal of power from the centre. I think that analysis had a lot of merit.

There are already moves, reported in the Telegraph last week, to set up a constitutional convention after the vote to strengthen UK cohesion. It seems quite blinkered for those who want the vote to be decisive to not consider the downside of that which is a closing down of developments. I know, James, that you have in the past said that the constitution has dominated too long, but this is because Scotland relationship to the UK versus the rest of the world is something a large section of society cares passionately above and has done for decades (as a student in the seventies I remember the Scotsman’s letter pages were dominated by the national issue). The idea that concentrating on the constitutional issue makes Scotland parochial or inward looking is belied by developments now across Europe, where in both Catalonia and Flanders the constitutional issue has dominated for years and looks like coming to a climax at the same time as in Scotland.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I followed the link to Ian Smart&#8217;s blog. Pretty opaque stuff, which is a pity because in an earlier blog piece he made a very important and non-partisan point, the fact that it wasn&#8217;t taken up shows in my view just how infantile Scottish political blogging is. The point he made was that having the question asked, in a referendum, whether Scotland should be independent does not further the process of Scotland&#8217;s development since the start of the devolution process. In fact, it threatens that process because if the referendum is lost the UK government and press will take that as a vote of confidence in the UK and will want to use it to strengthen the UK and clamp down on any further dispersal of power from the centre. I think that analysis had a lot of merit.</p>
<p>There are already moves, reported in the Telegraph last week, to set up a constitutional convention after the vote to strengthen UK cohesion. It seems quite blinkered for those who want the vote to be decisive to not consider the downside of that which is a closing down of developments. I know, James, that you have in the past said that the constitution has dominated too long, but this is because Scotland relationship to the UK versus the rest of the world is something a large section of society cares passionately above and has done for decades (as a student in the seventies I remember the Scotsman’s letter pages were dominated by the national issue). The idea that concentrating on the constitutional issue makes Scotland parochial or inward looking is belied by developments now across Europe, where in both Catalonia and Flanders the constitutional issue has dominated for years and looks like coming to a climax at the same time as in Scotland.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/the-goldilocks-referendum/#comment-35330</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2879#comment-35330</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The most hilarious thing about this agreement is the way Tories like Malcolm Rifkind are essentially going &quot;ahahahaha! We&#039;re forcing the SNP to have a referendum on independence in 2014! Ahahahaha!&quot;

A bit like someone saying to me &quot;ahahaha! I&#039;m forcing you to have a holiday over Christmas! Ahahaha!&quot;

(For reference, those ahahahas should be read in a Stewart Lee voice.)

It&#039;s ridiculous! Independence is the SNP&#039;s whole point for existence, so the idea that forcing them to have a yes/no question on it is somehow a major blow to nationalism is just bizarre. And since unionists were the ones wanting the referendum sooner than 2014, I don&#039;t understand why this sunset clause is meant to be a victory for unionists.

You expect spin from politicians to try and make out they&#039;ve come out on top, but the rubbish being spouted about this is just tedious.

As for Devo Max, I remain convinced that it was never anything more than a tool for achieving other objectives. The Scottish Government is getting a referendum on independence that can&#039;t be challenged in court, will have their preferred wording and franchise, and will be held at a time of their choosing. I don&#039;t see how they would have gotten that without a bone to throw Cameron&#039;s way. And for all the talk of it being Salmond&#039;s &quot;fallback option&quot;, does anyone seriously think he wouldn&#039;t have been accused of political failure if he&#039;d delivered Devo Max instead of independence?

If Labour &amp; co had gone for Devo Max, it wouldn&#039;t have been a disaster - it&#039;s a compromise Salmond and others could have lived with, even though it would have made independence a much harder sell. But they were never going to go for it, because Calman showed how serious the three UK parties are about further powers - not very.

But having said all that, I think it&#039;s pretty obvious people either believe he wanted it or they don&#039;t, so there&#039;s little point arguing about it, especially now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most hilarious thing about this agreement is the way Tories like Malcolm Rifkind are essentially going &#8220;ahahahaha! We&#8217;re forcing the SNP to have a referendum on independence in 2014! Ahahahaha!&#8221;</p>
<p>A bit like someone saying to me &#8220;ahahaha! I&#8217;m forcing you to have a holiday over Christmas! Ahahaha!&#8221;</p>
<p>(For reference, those ahahahas should be read in a Stewart Lee voice.)</p>
<p>It&#8217;s ridiculous! Independence is the SNP&#8217;s whole point for existence, so the idea that forcing them to have a yes/no question on it is somehow a major blow to nationalism is just bizarre. And since unionists were the ones wanting the referendum sooner than 2014, I don&#8217;t understand why this sunset clause is meant to be a victory for unionists.</p>
<p>You expect spin from politicians to try and make out they&#8217;ve come out on top, but the rubbish being spouted about this is just tedious.</p>
<p>As for Devo Max, I remain convinced that it was never anything more than a tool for achieving other objectives. The Scottish Government is getting a referendum on independence that can&#8217;t be challenged in court, will have their preferred wording and franchise, and will be held at a time of their choosing. I don&#8217;t see how they would have gotten that without a bone to throw Cameron&#8217;s way. And for all the talk of it being Salmond&#8217;s &#8220;fallback option&#8221;, does anyone seriously think he wouldn&#8217;t have been accused of political failure if he&#8217;d delivered Devo Max instead of independence?</p>
<p>If Labour &amp; co had gone for Devo Max, it wouldn&#8217;t have been a disaster &#8211; it&#8217;s a compromise Salmond and others could have lived with, even though it would have made independence a much harder sell. But they were never going to go for it, because Calman showed how serious the three UK parties are about further powers &#8211; not very.</p>
<p>But having said all that, I think it&#8217;s pretty obvious people either believe he wanted it or they don&#8217;t, so there&#8217;s little point arguing about it, especially now.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/the-goldilocks-referendum/#comment-35329</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2879#comment-35329</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.betternation.org/2011/11/bear-trap/&quot; title=&quot;Again!&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This&lt;/a&gt;. It&#039;s the same link I posted in the article and again in an earlier comment. Sigh.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.betternation.org/2011/11/bear-trap/" title="Again!" rel="nofollow">This</a>. It&#8217;s the same link I posted in the article and again in an earlier comment. Sigh.</p>
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		<title>By: KBW</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/the-goldilocks-referendum/#comment-35328</link>
		<dc:creator>KBW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2879#comment-35328</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Really I must have missed the link then can you re link to it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really I must have missed the link then can you re link to it?</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/the-goldilocks-referendum/#comment-35326</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2879#comment-35326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m quoting SNP press releases.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m quoting SNP press releases.</p>
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		<title>By: KBW</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/the-goldilocks-referendum/#comment-35324</link>
		<dc:creator>KBW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2879#comment-35324</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If your quoting of Harris and Torrance is supposed to convince any one of anything, I feel you are straw grasping. You have presented no evidence. Like Iain Smarts constant insane assertion that Salmond is looking at a way out to not have the referendum it is all just back ground static hiss that at the end of the day is totally irrelevant. The game is on and Salmond has won all before him to this point. Only a fool would bet that he will not achieve full independence for Scotland. The unionists who resisted the referendum for 4 years in Holyrood are now in a corner they painted them selves in to. Even the footwork of the great Cassius Clay will not get them out of this one. 

Even if Salmond did drop the baton he would be swiftly deposed and there are many able Lieutenants who are ready willing and able  to pick it up. Scotlands independence is inevitable of that there is no doubt. I remember after last years SNP conference that someone it was probably Curtice alleged that Salmond never even mentioned independence in his speech to conference. A quick review will show that he was listening to the voices again. Unionism seems to create these voices that has seen many of them banished to that parallel universe they live in. Such is the power of self interest.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If your quoting of Harris and Torrance is supposed to convince any one of anything, I feel you are straw grasping. You have presented no evidence. Like Iain Smarts constant insane assertion that Salmond is looking at a way out to not have the referendum it is all just back ground static hiss that at the end of the day is totally irrelevant. The game is on and Salmond has won all before him to this point. Only a fool would bet that he will not achieve full independence for Scotland. The unionists who resisted the referendum for 4 years in Holyrood are now in a corner they painted them selves in to. Even the footwork of the great Cassius Clay will not get them out of this one. </p>
<p>Even if Salmond did drop the baton he would be swiftly deposed and there are many able Lieutenants who are ready willing and able  to pick it up. Scotlands independence is inevitable of that there is no doubt. I remember after last years SNP conference that someone it was probably Curtice alleged that Salmond never even mentioned independence in his speech to conference. A quick review will show that he was listening to the voices again. Unionism seems to create these voices that has seen many of them banished to that parallel universe they live in. Such is the power of self interest.</p>
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		<title>By: Commenter</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/the-goldilocks-referendum/#comment-35321</link>
		<dc:creator>Commenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2879#comment-35321</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s most plausible that Salmond wanted a Devo Max option because that would be much more winnable than independence, given that No outnumbers Yes by two-to-one. Pretty flipping obvious really. The issue of what a devo-max &#039;Yes&#039; would actually mean is secondary to avoiding a decisive slapdown to independence in 2014, I think. 

All this devious Machiavellian nonsense is massively overplayed by some SNP folk.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s most plausible that Salmond wanted a Devo Max option because that would be much more winnable than independence, given that No outnumbers Yes by two-to-one. Pretty flipping obvious really. The issue of what a devo-max &#8216;Yes&#8217; would actually mean is secondary to avoiding a decisive slapdown to independence in 2014, I think. </p>
<p>All this devious Machiavellian nonsense is massively overplayed by some SNP folk.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/the-goldilocks-referendum/#comment-35319</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2879#comment-35319</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nope, not I. Do take a look at the small print &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.betternation.org/2011/11/bear-trap/&quot; title=&quot;My post&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; for evidence of SNP efforts to get a 2nd question.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope, not I. Do take a look at the small print <a href="http://www.betternation.org/2011/11/bear-trap/" title="My post" rel="nofollow">here</a> for evidence of SNP efforts to get a 2nd question.</p>
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		<title>By: KBW</title>
		<link>http://www.betternation.org/2012/10/the-goldilocks-referendum/#comment-35315</link>
		<dc:creator>KBW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 10:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.betternation.org/?p=2879#comment-35315</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So is Mackenzie Alex Salmonds spokes person we should have been told? No wonder the NO campaign is dumped rusting in the long heather. And that is where it will end it&#039;s days.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So is Mackenzie Alex Salmonds spokes person we should have been told? No wonder the NO campaign is dumped rusting in the long heather. And that is where it will end it&#8217;s days.</p>
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