Comments for Better Nation http://www.betternation.org Work as if you live in the early days of a Thu, 17 May 2012 06:55:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 Comment on Labour, tuition fees and all that hard to listen to acid jazz by Nik http://www.betternation.org/2012/05/labour-tuition-fees-and-all-that-hard-to-listen-to-acid-jazz/#comment-29696 Nik Thu, 17 May 2012 06:55:28 +0000 http://www.betternation.org/?p=2183#comment-29696 Has anyone seen this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18060226 Has anyone seen this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18060226

]]> Comment on The Problem with Political Jokes by Barbarian http://www.betternation.org/2012/05/the-problem-with-political-jokes/#comment-29684 Barbarian Wed, 16 May 2012 21:49:48 +0000 http://www.betternation.org/?p=2220#comment-29684 How long before we finally get a heckler at the SNP conference? While interesting, I would imagine such an individual would be lucky to get out alive, or at least without severe tut-tutting from the faithful and a verbal lashing by Propaganda Chief McAlpine. Heckling is good, but give the ministers their due they stood their ground, no doubt waiting for the Prime Minister's vote of confidence. Dennis Skinner apparently did the best one when Cecil Parkinson was in the Commons, speech ongoing with hand in pocket. Skinner shouted "stop playing with yourself". Now you know why politicians always keep their hands visible. How long before we finally get a heckler at the SNP conference? While interesting, I would imagine such an individual would be lucky to get out alive, or at least without severe tut-tutting from the faithful and a verbal lashing by Propaganda Chief McAlpine.

Heckling is good, but give the ministers their due they stood their ground, no doubt waiting for the Prime Minister’s vote of confidence.

Dennis Skinner apparently did the best one when Cecil Parkinson was in the Commons, speech ongoing with hand in pocket. Skinner shouted “stop playing with yourself”. Now you know why politicians always keep their hands visible.

]]> Comment on Labour, tuition fees and all that hard to listen to acid jazz by Doug Daniel http://www.betternation.org/2012/05/labour-tuition-fees-and-all-that-hard-to-listen-to-acid-jazz/#comment-29674 Doug Daniel Wed, 16 May 2012 15:57:28 +0000 http://www.betternation.org/?p=2183#comment-29674 I'm not "encouraging" it, I'm just saying people are far too quick to highlight living costs as an unavoidable fact of university life, and it's simply not true, as I proved by never getting into debt the whole time I was at university. Staying at home in no way hinders your ability to learn - in fact if you have parents who take an interest, you'll likely do better than you would if you were surrounded by folk who are going to drop out after a couple of years. Are you saying we should promote "independent living" ahead of intellectual pursuit? I’m not “encouraging” it, I’m just saying people are far too quick to highlight living costs as an unavoidable fact of university life, and it’s simply not true, as I proved by never getting into debt the whole time I was at university.

Staying at home in no way hinders your ability to learn – in fact if you have parents who take an interest, you’ll likely do better than you would if you were surrounded by folk who are going to drop out after a couple of years. Are you saying we should promote “independent living” ahead of intellectual pursuit?

]]> Comment on Labour, tuition fees and all that hard to listen to acid jazz by Doug Daniel http://www.betternation.org/2012/05/labour-tuition-fees-and-all-that-hard-to-listen-to-acid-jazz/#comment-29673 Doug Daniel Wed, 16 May 2012 15:42:25 +0000 http://www.betternation.org/?p=2183#comment-29673 Why would I suggest that? I'm just saying that putting 100 students through university doesn't cost 10 times the amount to put 10 through. But as DonMc pointed out, the way these kind of debates focus solely on funding, you would think it did. Why would I suggest that? I’m just saying that putting 100 students through university doesn’t cost 10 times the amount to put 10 through. But as DonMc pointed out, the way these kind of debates focus solely on funding, you would think it did.

]]> Comment on Labour, tuition fees and all that hard to listen to acid jazz by Iain Menzies http://www.betternation.org/2012/05/labour-tuition-fees-and-all-that-hard-to-listen-to-acid-jazz/#comment-29670 Iain Menzies Wed, 16 May 2012 11:32:27 +0000 http://www.betternation.org/?p=2183#comment-29670 What does it matter if costs raise uniformly or not? are you seriously suggesting that more students can cost less?! What does it matter if costs raise uniformly or not? are you seriously suggesting that more students can cost less?!

]]> Comment on Labour, tuition fees and all that hard to listen to acid jazz by Iain Menzies http://www.betternation.org/2012/05/labour-tuition-fees-and-all-that-hard-to-listen-to-acid-jazz/#comment-29669 Iain Menzies Wed, 16 May 2012 11:31:19 +0000 http://www.betternation.org/?p=2183#comment-29669 Ok i could have made that clearer. I went to Dundee, and Stirling.... In first and second year your perfectly right, by third year more than ten becomes an issue, and by fourth year more than ten, in my opinion is a nonsense. Time is also an issue, of the three modules that i had in fourth year one had regular two our tutorials, the others one hour. Small classes and long classes are better. The question isnt can you do it with larger/shorter classes, the question is about the quality of education that results. I tend to take the view that if you are looking to get a degree, especially if someone is paying for it, which someone inevitably is, then we should be interested in making sure that there is a concern for quality of degrees, not just the number of people getting them. I hate to say it but from all i have seen you post here you dont seem, to me at least, to be all that interested in the quality of education that is being provided. Ok i could have made that clearer. I went to Dundee, and Stirling….

In first and second year your perfectly right, by third year more than ten becomes an issue, and by fourth year more than ten, in my opinion is a nonsense.

Time is also an issue, of the three modules that i had in fourth year one had regular two our tutorials, the others one hour. Small classes and long classes are better.

The question isnt can you do it with larger/shorter classes, the question is about the quality of education that results.

I tend to take the view that if you are looking to get a degree, especially if someone is paying for it, which someone inevitably is, then we should be interested in making sure that there is a concern for quality of degrees, not just the number of people getting them.

I hate to say it but from all i have seen you post here you dont seem, to me at least, to be all that interested in the quality of education that is being provided.

]]> Comment on Labour, tuition fees and all that hard to listen to acid jazz by Sandy Brownlee http://www.betternation.org/2012/05/labour-tuition-fees-and-all-that-hard-to-listen-to-acid-jazz/#comment-29668 Sandy Brownlee Wed, 16 May 2012 11:19:38 +0000 http://www.betternation.org/?p=2183#comment-29668 <blockquote> <a href="#comment-29655" rel="nofollow"> <strong><em>Doug Daniel:</em></strong> </a> So lecturers get paid extra for each essay they mark, for every person they give an assignment to, and for every tuition class they take? That’s a bit of a rubbish system. </blockquote> I certainly didn't - marking was just part of the job!


Doug Daniel:

So lecturers get paid extra for each essay they mark, for every person they give an assignment to, and for every tuition class they take? That’s a bit of a rubbish system.

I certainly didn’t – marking was just part of the job!

]]> Comment on Labour, tuition fees and all that hard to listen to acid jazz by Doug Daniel http://www.betternation.org/2012/05/labour-tuition-fees-and-all-that-hard-to-listen-to-acid-jazz/#comment-29667 Doug Daniel Wed, 16 May 2012 10:59:57 +0000 http://www.betternation.org/?p=2183#comment-29667 And this disproves my point that each extra student does not incur a uniform rise in costs how, exactly? It's interesting you've not addressed Don's point that university places are limited by many more factors than cost. And this disproves my point that each extra student does not incur a uniform rise in costs how, exactly?

It’s interesting you’ve not addressed Don’s point that university places are limited by many more factors than cost.

]]> Comment on Labour, tuition fees and all that hard to listen to acid jazz by Doug Daniel http://www.betternation.org/2012/05/labour-tuition-fees-and-all-that-hard-to-listen-to-acid-jazz/#comment-29666 Doug Daniel Wed, 16 May 2012 10:54:20 +0000 http://www.betternation.org/?p=2183#comment-29666 10?!? What sort of uni did you go to? I took several subjects in my time at Aberdeen uni (as computing science didn't qualify for enough credits in 1st and 2nd year on its own), and I don't recall a single computing, maths, chemistry, psychology, philosophy or politics seminar/tutorial/laboratory/practical class containing less than 20 students, and usually closer to 30. Unless there were a lot of skivers, that is. And interaction was just fine, partly because by the time you're 17, you shouldn't need to be mollycoddled like a schoolchild. But I accept you need more staff for these sort of classes. However, again, this is not a uniform extra incurred cost per student. Suppose we go with your number and we say 10 extra places requires an extra tutor (ignoring the fact these tend to be PhD students, rather than completely separate people who are there for the sole purpose of taking that one tutorial class). Labour wants to charge people £6,000 fees in England. So 10 extra students means £60,000 extra revenue for the university. That's one very expensive tutor. 10?!? What sort of uni did you go to? I took several subjects in my time at Aberdeen uni (as computing science didn’t qualify for enough credits in 1st and 2nd year on its own), and I don’t recall a single computing, maths, chemistry, psychology, philosophy or politics seminar/tutorial/laboratory/practical class containing less than 20 students, and usually closer to 30. Unless there were a lot of skivers, that is. And interaction was just fine, partly because by the time you’re 17, you shouldn’t need to be mollycoddled like a schoolchild.

But I accept you need more staff for these sort of classes. However, again, this is not a uniform extra incurred cost per student. Suppose we go with your number and we say 10 extra places requires an extra tutor (ignoring the fact these tend to be PhD students, rather than completely separate people who are there for the sole purpose of taking that one tutorial class). Labour wants to charge people £6,000 fees in England. So 10 extra students means £60,000 extra revenue for the university. That’s one very expensive tutor.

]]> Comment on Labour, tuition fees and all that hard to listen to acid jazz by Sandy Brownlee http://www.betternation.org/2012/05/labour-tuition-fees-and-all-that-hard-to-listen-to-acid-jazz/#comment-29665 Sandy Brownlee Wed, 16 May 2012 10:37:06 +0000 http://www.betternation.org/?p=2183#comment-29665 I have to agree that there is a fundamental problem with the number of students in higher education currently. Fewer students means that it's easier to properly fund them, and their degrees become more valuable again. Instead, have people less suited to degrees studying in a way which works for them (e.g. apprenticeships). "P2. Education is a right – everybody has a right to an appropriate level of education (this is currently universal, compulsory and free up to 16)." I agree with this premise, and it's not incompatible with what I said above, given the key point that it's a right *to an appropriate level*. So everyone has a right to an education suitable for them. How do we determine what's suitable? The obvious way is to restrict entry to university by ability, measured by existing qualifications and experience, but make it completely free so that simply having money doesn't mean you can skip over people more able or suited to a degree. I have to agree that there is a fundamental problem with the number of students in higher education currently. Fewer students means that it’s easier to properly fund them, and their degrees become more valuable again. Instead, have people less suited to degrees studying in a way which works for them (e.g. apprenticeships).

“P2. Education is a right – everybody has a right to an appropriate level of education (this is currently universal, compulsory and free up to 16).”

I agree with this premise, and it’s not incompatible with what I said above, given the key point that it’s a right *to an appropriate level*. So everyone has a right to an education suitable for them. How do we determine what’s suitable? The obvious way is to restrict entry to university by ability, measured by existing qualifications and experience, but make it completely free so that simply having money doesn’t mean you can skip over people more able or suited to a degree.

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