It’s the standard cry of flacks for the larger and more tarnished parties. Every time a secret dining club with the PM is revealed, every time a millionaire donor turns out to have come by his money through fraud, every time a PM is questioned over cash for peerages, every time a half a million pounds arrives just before policies the donor doesn’t like are dropped.
And of course it’s not true.
Every recent party of government is at it or has been at it or looks like they’ve been at it, but those of us who work for or volunteer for shoe-string operation parties like the Greens get seriously tired of hearing we’re just as bad. Tired as in, in my case, a strong desire to throw the radio out of the window. It suits the corrupted class to swirl their hands in the sewage floating up around their midriffs and pretend that all parties are in just as deep. If all politics is equally corrupt, they imply, why stop voting for us just because we are? No-one else is any better. We’re all in the sewer together.
Seriously, it’s not true.
Sure, Greens have had larger donations in the past, although I can’t remember anything above £20k. Sure, I hoped we’d find a rich donor in good time before the 2011 election to compete with the Soutar warchest and the unions’ money and all the rest. Perhaps we just haven’t had a chance to be corrupted yet. But I don’t think so.
So what can be done about this party funding mess? Leave it as it is and hope the fear of being caught will reduce the likelihood of it being repeated? The evidence is against that. Soutar gave the same amount of money again to the SNP last year despite the 2007 outcry over their abandonment of bus re-regulation, which remains comfortably abandoned. Neither Blair nor any of his associates ever faced trial over cash for honours. The Lib Dems never even gave Brown’s donation back to the people he’d defrauded it from (I regard this as the most egregious on this list, incidentally).
The current wrangle over donations founders on two things. First, parity – will the Tories take enough from Labour through capping union donations or fragmenting them and, conversely, will Labour block enough of the funnel that leads from big business to the Tories?
The “fairness” battle between Labour and the Tories is an odd one, but pragmatically I accept they both need to be happy with the outcome. Personally I’d ban all collective donations to political parties – corporations and unions (collectively) unbalance politics with large donations and are in that way undemocratic, although unions’ other activities remain vital. So by all means make it easy for individual Labour-supporting trade unionists to give to their party, or indeed trade unionists who support any other party to give as they wish. Similarly, individual shareholders are people too, and if they want to give to the Tories or to any other party, fine, so be it.
Second, what about state funding? The public won’t wear state funding, we’re told, although the return on investment would be substantial if the quid pro quid was a system capable of ending the money-go-round. And the large parties won’t wear living on the small and capped donations of their members. So where else could the money come from for state funding?
Well, here’s a crazy interim idea. Donations. Eh? What? Here’s the idea. Take 50% of every donation to every political party and redistribute it according to the votes cast at the last election (or a rolling average across types of election). A hypothecated tax, if you will. A big donor would know that his or her preferred party will benefit most from their donation, but their donation would also be supporting fair funding for other parties too. Yes, it’s crazy. Other suggestions welcome. We can’t go on like this.
#1 by Doug Daniel on March 26, 2012 - 7:53 pm
Interesting idea James, but I’m afraid it’s a complete non-starter. As a member, I give money to the SNP every month, but if I thought for a second that even a penny of that was going towards Labour or the Tories, I’d be most unhappy. That’s without even going into the fact that parties like the BNP or the Christian Party could be on the receiving end of my cash. No way am I funding racists or religious nutters. It also means that even if a party suddenly loses support, they are still guaranteed a good level of funding thanks to their previous result(s). No, a party must be allowed to die if it has managed to lose all support, and that can only happen if they have to rely on their own fundraising.
Not to mention the fact that you then create a situation where parties are relying on votes for their very existence, which is just asking for some dodgy practices to begin. We never did find those missing registers for the Glenrothes by-election a few years ago…
I’m conflicted on this issue. On the one hand, I obviously want to see an end to the rich elite basically dictating our politics by bankrolling whichever party will bend over for them. It also seems unfair that Labour’s guaranteed block of funding may include donations from people who may not even support Labour (and I know union forms allow people to opt out, but how many people actually bother to check that?)
But then we come to the SNP. Now, putting Soutar aside (we know your view on why the SNP didn’t include bus regulation in the 2007 manifesto, but I’ve always found Indy’s alternative explanation to be far more feasible), look at the two massive donations the SNP has had of late, and we see why I’m not so sure about any plan to put limits on individual donations etc (and yes, I realise they are completely self-serving!)
Edwin Morgan giving the SNP £918,000 in his will – well, he can hardly influence the party from beyond the grave. If someone really feels that strongly about their political cause, is it really fair to say “no, you can’t leave that money to them”?
The lottery winners giving £1,000,000 to the SNP – surely nobody in their right minds thinks these two are trying to buy any influence in the SNP? They just struck it lucky and want to make sure the campaign for independence is as well funded as the opposition campaigns will be, which will include rich tax evaders/avoiders, big corporations, and possibly the full might of the unions as well (assuming they don’t get a say in how Labour spends their money).
I look at both of those as examples of where caps on funding would have prevented big – but innocuous – donations from being made, for the benefit of no one other than the other parties. But then, I consider independence to be a worthy and just cause – perhaps the tax dodgers who fund the Tories think that trying to keep every penny of their filthy lucre is a worthy and just cause. And of course, the SNP only needs those massive donations because of the massive funding of other parties we will be fighting against.
So, after saying I’m conflicted, I now find myself settled. Make donations possible only from individual members of the public, and cap them at something fairly reasonable. £1,000 per year even? Well, split it by month – £100 per month – as £1,000 doesn’t divide by 12 nicely. That forces them to try and recruit as many members as possible, hopefully bringing them closer to the public, and bringing the public closer to politics. Everybody wins. Except the Tories, which is even better.
Whatever ends up getting decided (although we all know nothing will change anyway), as with anything, we need the full facts before making a decision – namely, what exactly do parties spend all this money on, and is it worth funding? Perhaps some of our more active campaigners can explain.
#2 by Doug Daniel on March 26, 2012 - 7:54 pm
Urgh, didn’t mean to bleather that long…
#3 by James on March 26, 2012 - 8:21 pm
My objection to large donations isn’t just influence – it’s the destabilising effect on politics. Until the SNP started to be on the lucky end of it I’m sure you lot used to complain about the Ashcroft Millions too.
#4 by Doug Daniel on March 26, 2012 - 9:17 pm
Maybe… 😛
#5 by Doug Daniel on March 26, 2012 - 7:57 pm
Actually, just thinking – when I get SNP letters asking for money, I always think “ach, you’ve got tons of money, you don’t need any more from me”, purely because of those two massive donations. Perhaps big donations are not as great as they first look?
#6 by Indy on March 26, 2012 - 10:31 pm
I think you are forgetting that we only got the Souter donation because the party matched it. You and I and every other member and supporter contributed to that pot of money as much as Brian Souter did.
#7 by James on March 26, 2012 - 10:35 pm
The second time round. The first came with fewer overt strings. And even the second time that was a pretty transparent manoeuvre, given the timing. “You’ve probably got £500k coming in, I’ll say I’ll match it”.
#8 by Indy on March 26, 2012 - 10:48 pm
Of course it was a challenge to the party – I’ll give you 500 grand if you raise 500 grand. But the point is we did.
I give a much higher proportion of my income to the SNP than Brian Souter does, so do many people. He has more money to give because he is loaded but don’t dismiss raising 500 grand – in fact as I recall it ended up being more than that – from ordinary members as though it was something easy or meaningless. A hell of a lot of people contributed to that and every donation counted even if all someone could afford was a tenner.
#9 by Aidan on March 26, 2012 - 11:47 pm
There’s another way of viewing it: it acted an additional incentive for small donations, for every pound they donated the party got two pounds.
#10 by Indy on March 27, 2012 - 12:37 pm
Absolutely. That’s exactly why a system of state matched funding would work pretty well in my view.
#11 by Doug Daniel on March 26, 2012 - 11:45 pm
“And even the second time that was a pretty transparent manoeuvre, given the timing”
Which piece of mud are you throwing at the wall this time? I’m assuming it’s the knighthood, as that’s the other attempted sleaze story Labour activists are going on about on Twitter (completely oblivious to the fact they’ve had a party leader actually get caught out and resign due to a donation scandal…)
#12 by James on March 27, 2012 - 12:46 pm
No, I don’t have a huge interest in knighthoods. I mean the “let’s make this look like more than it is by publicising that it has to be matched just when we’re expecting most of our regular donations anyway so we can A) get another round of publicity and B) make the SNP look less like they’re in the pocket of a rich bigot” thing.
#13 by Doug Daniel on March 27, 2012 - 2:04 pm
Oh, is that all? I don’t see any big deal about that. After all, it did its job. Maybe I was just taken in by spin, but it encouraged me to give a bit more than usual, and I remember reading other members saying the same.
#14 by Andrew Graeme Smith on March 28, 2012 - 1:14 am
At the risk of inflaming something I can’t see how you can be so passive about what looks very much like a Scottish case of cash for honors, do you really think his donations had nothing to do with the subsequent knighthood? furthermore I fail to see why you would judge the morality of the decision by what Labour have or have not done.
#15 by Doug Daniel on March 28, 2012 - 9:06 am
I can be passive because there is absolutely no proof. Although I have no time for the honours system, are we saying that donating money to the SNP automatically precludes people from receiving knighthoods etc? As I’ve said elsewhere, if a bus magnate can only receive a knighthood through nefarious means, then who did Sir Moir Lockhead pay for his knighthood?
If someone can show proof that the SNP have done something wrong, then I’ll join in the criticism and cancel my membership. Until then, it’s just smear, intended to try and paint the SNP as being just the same as the UK parties.
And I only bring up Labour to point out that their activists should remember the saying about throwing stones in glass houses.
#16 by Doug Daniel on March 26, 2012 - 11:38 pm
I’m talking more about the lottery winners and Edwin Morgan donations. Then again, those are ring-fenced for independence campaign, so maybe I need to forget about them…
#17 by Daniel J on March 26, 2012 - 10:13 pm
I agree with you in that I wouldn’t want to donate and have money go to other parties. I’m much more supportive of a £/vote system like Germany. On the condition that your accounts must be audited and that state funding cannot make up more than 50% of your funding.
“Not to mention the fact that you then create a situation where parties are relying on votes for their very existence, which is just asking for some dodgy practices to begin.”
This isn’t a particularly good argument against such a system, parties are already dependent on votes for their very existence :P. Yes it might increase the incentives for smaller parties to try and cheat, but surely this is something that we can work to minimise.
I’m going to stop thinking about it now, I doubt we’ll ever see state funding for political parties. Disappointingly the SNP doesn’t support it either.
#18 by Doug Daniel on March 26, 2012 - 11:41 pm
To be honest, I was actually thinking more of bigger parties as being the ones most likely to be tempted to find somewhat dubious ways of ensuring enough people were voting for them – the ones with the most to lose are always the ones to watch out for.
#19 by Dubbieside on March 26, 2012 - 10:18 pm
Doug
In theory you can opt out of the political levy, but in reality there is no opt out.
When I paid union dues and “opted out” I requested that my opted out money went to the political party that I supported. I was informed that my money went to “none political uses” I pointed out that was a nonsense, my money going to the things the union should be doing left more money for them to waste on political donations.
The only fair system about union political levy,s is that people should opt in ever year and also specify which political party they want their donation to go to. If they do not want to donate to a political party they should be able to nominate a charity of their own choice that an amount equal to the levy is paid to.
This is the real issue at the heart of political funding, how many people are there being forced to contribute to a party that they do not support?
#20 by Iain Menzies on March 27, 2012 - 1:27 pm
In total agreement with your first paragraph. Which is somehow unsettling….
“That forces them to try and recruit as many members as possible, hopefully bringing them closer to the public, and bringing the public closer to politics. Everybody wins. Except the Tories, which is even better.”
Really? you think? Im gonna go out on a limb here and suggets that even if the Scottish Tory party isnt massive (but it aint that small) then it very possible has the wealthiest members on average. So they can give more each. So if you have a situation where maybe as much as 80%(+) of tory members can give the full limit, but say less than 40% of labour members can then you can see a situation where there is a potential fund raising advantage in your plan for the Tories.
#21 by Doug Daniel on March 27, 2012 - 7:36 pm
I’m sure either you’ve misread something or I’ve missed a crucial word out. I’ll try to ensure normal service resumes soon enough…
You may have a point with the Tories (to be honest that was just a bit of joshing really), although the rather glaring lack of youth at their conference last weekend (even if you extend “youth” to mean “under 40”) doesn’t bode all that well for them. Perhaps the Lib Dems would have been a better example, since they’re probably in an even worse state and generally don’t have such wealthy backers to rely on.
But the point is, if any party reaches a point where it gets SO unpopular that it just doesn’t represent anyone anymore, then it should be allowed to die; state funding, based on election results from the past, would provide an artificial life support mechanism for such parties.
#22 by Thomas Widmann on March 27, 2012 - 8:26 pm
If a party get so unpopular that it doesn’t represent anyone anymore, it doesn’t get any votes, so by definition it wouldn’t get any state funding.
I guess what you mean is that state funding would be between 0 and 5 years behind the current support levels, which is true, of course. However, I’m not sure what the alternative is — state funding by opinion polls?!?
#23 by Doug Daniel on March 28, 2012 - 9:11 am
But that’s just it, there’s a lag. Basing funding on a result in the past does not allow for a true reflection of the current popularity of a party, which I think is important. I don’t see how it is democratic to effectively ensure a party’s existence.
The alternative? It already exists – funding through donors! It just needs to be better regulated.
#24 by M G on March 26, 2012 - 8:00 pm
After Barrack Obama was elected,I heard an interesting discussion on how,by anybody being able to donate a dollar ,it meant they’ bought into’ his campaign,thus voting for him.
The problem is James,to the best of my knowledge,neither the Tories,Lib dems or Labour have some devine right to be the major parties. Personally I have never voted for any of the above although I do vote.
Perhaps if they had to engage with the people who might donate a pound, it may actually focus good old Democracy eh back to the people who are supposed to be represented rather than some ‘lobby’ group.
#25 by Jeff on March 26, 2012 - 9:05 pm
Great idea James. I’d be happy with state funding but, failing that (if, as you say, the public won’t wear it), then 50% of donations spread evenly seems fair to me.
I’d be relaxed about £1 going to nutter parties as long as democracy spread the rest evenly. And it’d make people more keen to vote and get out there to argue the nutters down. Goodness knows we could do with an injection of energy in our political system after all.
And, best of all, no more tactical voting. If the Greens are going to come in 4th in every constituenecy; at least your vote means a tiny %age of money for them to save up and come back swinging in 4 or 5 years time. Yep, count me in.
#26 by Alec on March 26, 2012 - 9:43 pm
In the nicest possible way, you’re the Greens. You aint going to get anywhere near political power any time soon… not even the levels of the LibDems pre May 2010.
A better line of argument would be NGOs you presumably hold dear, and the superannuated salaries their chiefs demand (whilst the lowly employees do so on a pittance ‘cos it’s for a good cause, and that’s before we get onto the matter of volunteers).
Typically, directors hail from middle management backgrounds or career jockeys within the NGO/charity industry which is bankrolled by good-willed public and largess of national governments; and regularly enjoy salaries well into six figures.
A Charity Commission investigation is ongoing into the £1 millions pay-offs given to departing directors (who previously had enjoyed six figure salaries, including one who was in charge of the poverty eradication unit).
~alec
#27 by James on March 26, 2012 - 10:32 pm
Where does disproportionate pay in the NGO sector come into this?
#28 by Alec on March 26, 2012 - 11:16 pm
As I suggested, one reason that the Greens haven’t got their noses in the Westminster trough is ‘cos the temptation aint there for you. This aint a comment against you personally, just an observation – as a great many people are coming to – that everyone in any form of political office with access to expenses (from local councilors – non-aligned or Party members – and upwards) is associated with shady practice.
After the Westminster Expenses, the LibDems crowed about their probity… then came David Laws, and suggestions that MPs were employing their spouses Ken Livingstone style as declared office staff.
Holyrood said it was separate… then we saw stuff like taxi expense claims.
Everyone is in on it, and when you’re what’s similar to a small-scale social network which only ever has had one MP, it might be easy to say your fellows haven’t done it… but let’s wait until you’ve had the chance to resist temptation.
As even NGOs – including those you presumably admire and model yourselves after, or even are involved with – are at it, this chance might not prove positive.
~alec
#29 by Angus McLellan on March 26, 2012 - 10:04 pm
I think I gave the princely sum of £150 to the SNP over the past year. That would have been zero if donation-splitting had been the rule. Officially anyway. But maybe, had it been more money and worth the trouble, I’d done it in some way that sneaked round the restrictions. And even without a lawyer to advise me I can think of several right away. That wouldn’t really have been progress on the “clean up political finance” front then.
The Brown affair is exceptional. But apart from that, if some people want to pay £250K to have dinner with Cameron that’s fine by me. So long as we know who they are. The only change I’d like to see is that donations are only accepted from people on the electoral register. No trusts, no companies, &c, &c.
#30 by James on March 26, 2012 - 10:33 pm
If they have to be on the electoral roll at the point of donation that would be tighter than now, not least by ruling out the deceased. Like the late Makar.
#31 by Dubbieside on March 26, 2012 - 11:33 pm
So people should not be able to leave money to a political party that they have supported, maybe all their life, in their will.
Why not? At least they could not be accused of seeking political influence.
Would the Greens have refused the donation from the Makar if it had been made to them?
#32 by James on March 26, 2012 - 11:41 pm
We accept legal donations now, and would have accepted that, but that doesn’t alter the fact that bequests on that scale, like any donation on that scale, destabilise the political system, just like the Ashcroft Millions.
#33 by Angus McLellan on March 27, 2012 - 12:27 am
Just as well I’m not drafting legislation. Then we’d have to make an exception for dead people and their estates. They were on the roll at the time they decided to make the donation after all.
#34 by Thomas Widmann on March 26, 2012 - 10:29 pm
I still haven’t seen a good reason not to do state funding by votes. Let each vote be the equivalent of £1 (for Westminster, the Scottish Parliament, the European Parliament and council elections), so that the parties have a joint interest to get as many people voting as possible. The money for blank votes and non-voters could go to the Electoral Commission or to a charity or something.
#35 by James on March 26, 2012 - 10:34 pm
Thomas, I agree it’s the best solution. I was just trying to shake it up a little and see if there were other ideas.
#36 by Daniel J on March 26, 2012 - 11:28 pm
I agree too.
Hypothetically even at £1 for every parliamentary vote in Scotland:
£2.5m for Westminster
£2m for Scottish
£1m for European
That’s a *maximum* of ~£1m a year, to help ensure our political parties are not explicitly or implicitly beholden to vested interests.
#37 by Angus McLellan on March 27, 2012 - 12:30 am
If money matters that much, then this is a system which will entrench the position of the parties in the ascendant at the point at which the legislation is introduced. It also erects even more barriers in front of “minor” parties and independents. How are these good things?
#38 by Alec on March 26, 2012 - 11:17 pm
Such state funding already takes place, after a fashion, in the form of Short money.
~alec
#39 by Indy on March 28, 2012 - 11:55 am
Also in the fact that PO delivers election address for free.
#40 by Indy on March 26, 2012 - 10:41 pm
That wouldn’t work because if such a system was brought in people would stop donating to the party centrally and just donate to their local branch. Most of us already donate twice over as it were – pay a direct debit to party HQ to fund the party nationally and also pay a direct debit or 50/50 money or whatever to our local branch. Plus attending fundraisers etc. If a law was brought in to say that a proportion of the money donated to HQ was to be redistributed to other parties then HQ would just stop taking donations. Simple as that. It would be complicated trying to find a way to fund national campaigns thereafter but a way would be found. There is no way however that I would stand for a single penny of the money I give to the SNP going to any other party.
A much simpler system would be state matched funding – so for every donation the state would match it up to a certain level. For example it could match it by 50 per cent up to £1000. And you could set a limit on the amount any individual or company could donate – say £10,000.
The only exception I would make to that is bequests, and not simply because the SNP was left a pretty large one. Simply because by definition someone who leaves money in their will is not doing it to gain influence and can’t be accused of that so since that is the concern it does not apply to bequests.
Incidentally Jeff it is perfectly possible to go from being a small fringe party that comes 4th in most elections to being a large party that wins elections without helping yourself to any other party’s cash!
We did it.
#41 by Steve on March 27, 2012 - 12:02 am
How about state funding, but it’s paid for out of a hypothecated income tax, say at 10%, on former members of the cabinet including former Prime Ministers?
#42 by Indy on March 27, 2012 - 12:39 pm
Why?
Everybody actually benefits from living in a democracy.
#43 by Steve on March 27, 2012 - 2:11 pm
Hi Indy,
I was thinking that in many cases having been a cabinet minister or prime minister can result in increased earnings upon leaving politics, Tony Blair is the most extreme example, but even John Major earns a fair bit for doing things like after dinner speaking.
Seems to me that the additional earning potential comes in part from the authority that we as voters give them, so taxing them a bit more is payback.
Think of it as as being like a graduate tax or a planning gain supplement.
In the grand scheme of things it’s a small sum, but it might raise enough to go a long way to providing state funding for political parties, which might make that more possible given the objections that many have to funding it from general taxation.
I totally accept that we all benefit, but just like any other public service funded through taxation, we don’t pay according to the benefit we get from the service – we pay according (roughly at least) to the amount we can afford, through income and other taxes.
#44 by Indy on March 27, 2012 - 5:22 pm
I appreciate that many people object to state funding which is actually fair enough. But in that case parties need to get money from donors. Can’t really have it both ways.
#45 by Doug Daniel on March 27, 2012 - 12:14 am
As I’ve stated somewhere else tonight, if we were to go down the route of state funding, I think it would only be palatable if it came at the expense of part of MP/MSP salaries. After all, it is often the party people are voting for anyway, rather than the person.
That would also perhaps take a bit of power away from the whips – parties would have even more to lose by censuring their elected members, as the funding system would follow the MP/MSP if they were expelled or left the party.
Here’s a question to those who advocate state funding though – are you also saying this should provide 100% of their funding, or would ordinary members of the public still be allowed to donate to their chosen political cause?
#46 by Indy on March 27, 2012 - 12:46 pm
I advocate state funding on the basis that everyone is able to vote and benefits from living in a democracy but the number of people who actually “do” democracy is pretty miniscule.
Yet the role of leafleters, canvassers, polling agents, countng agents etc is vital. Elections really couldn’t happen without them. It’s an unpaid job, as it should be, but election activity itself costs money.
I wouldn’t be in favour of the state paying for billboards, newspaper inserts, direct mailings etc – I would put a restruction on what state funding could be used for – but I don’t see any reason why taxpayers should not help support parties publishing election addresses, creating PPBs and so on.
These are the sources of information which help people decide how they are supposed to vote after all. Why shouldn’t they be taxpayer funded?
#47 by Doug Daniel on March 27, 2012 - 4:31 pm
I can see your argument about the public benefiting from being properly informed in order to exercise their right to vote. But I think before we go down the road of state funding, people need to know what exactly they would be getting for their money. If it’s being funded by us, then it needs to be regulated, and hopefully the kind of nonsense we saw in the AV referendum would be against those regulations. We can’t have public money being used to spread lies to the public. Who knows, if it was done right, state funding could lead to a general clean up of politics.
I’m still not entirely convinced though.
#48 by G. P. Walrus on March 28, 2012 - 6:01 pm
What about only people on the electoral register being able to donate to political parties to a maximum of £1000 per individual voter per annum? I’d be happy enough to concede that it could be Gift-Aided.