Here’s an interesting statistic for you – there are more Scottish Tories in the House of Commons than there are SNP MPs.
David Mundell is often held up as the only Scottish Tory at Westminster but David is infact the most southern-born of those in the House of Commons hailing from north of Gretna.
The full list is as follows:
Liam Fox (MP for North Somerset) – born in East Kilbride
Iain Duncan Smith (MP for Chingford & Woodford Green) – born in Edinburgh
James Gray (MP for North Wiltshire) – born in Dunblane
David Mundell (MP for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) – born in Dumfries
Lorraine Fullbrook (MP for South Ribble) – born in Glasgow
Iain Stewart (MP for Milton Keynes South) – born in Hamilton
Michael Fallon (MP for Sevenoaks) – born in Perth
Eleanor Laing (MP for Epping Forest) – born in Paisley
update:
Michael Gove (MP for somewhere) – born in Edinburgh
Some may be wondering as to why Rory Stewart is not on that list, holder of an unmistakable Scottish accent and the Conservative MP for Penrith and The Border, but sadly his Wikipedia page has his place of birth down as Hong Kong. I guess that technicality helps to cancel out the leader of the SNP Angus Robertson who some may be surprised to know was born in leafy Wimbledon.
That’s a final score of 9 – 5 in favour of the Scots-born Tory MPs over the Scots-born SNP MPs.
Not that, I’m sure you’ll agree, any of this really matters. Where an individual is born is a rather arbitrary factor in the grand scheme of things.
That said, we as a country go bananas for Andy Murray and JK Rowling and Billy Connolly and Annie Lennox by dint of their birthplace alone. We are proud by association of their success and consider Scotland, and ourselves by extension, to be in some regard partly responsible for their situation. Not an unreasonable argument by any stretch of the imagination.
However, the tendency stops stone dead when it comes to Politics, particularly conservative politicians.
His role may have ended in ignominy but until recently we had a Scot in charge of the reserved brief of Defence in the shape of Liam Fox. That’s a union dividend right there or, at the very least, a reason to be cheerful. I don’t think it’s xenophobic to think that if one was a Scottish solider in the front line then one would have a little internal grin at having a political leader with the same accent, even if it gave you no practical advantage. It’s a little national pride thing, and there’s no harm in it. Similarly, Iain Duncan Smith from Edinburgh is one of the few members of the UK Cabinet who gets the scale of the challenges that underpin Scotland’s deepest ills and he is well placed to do something about it as the Work and Pensions Secretary, another Cabinet position with direct control of Scotland. Isn’t that a reason for a swelling of the Scottish chest moreso than a man who can cycle round a track very fast, Sir or no Sir?
Further afield, we have a (small-c) conservative Scot potentially poised to take over the leadership of Germany. What a celebration that will run through David McAllister’s family home City of Glasgow and Scotland at large if that day comes to pass! A Scottish leader at the world’s top table at last. Perhaps not the exact situation that the SNP has always envisaged but a wee fillip for Scotland nonetheless, surely?
They say there are no heroes any more, noone to look up to who can inspire us but we clearly have such people at home and abroad. Why don’t we know more about them? Why don’t we follow their progress more closely and know of their past more intimately?
Is it possible that in Scotland our choking hatred of everything Tory is so blinding that we deny our own sons and daughters the share of national pride that they have earned?
#1 by R.G. Bargie on November 25, 2011 - 2:22 pm
“I don’t think it’s xenophobic to think that if one was a Scottish solider in the front line then one would have a little internal grin at having a political leader with the same accent”
You think Liam Fox had a Scottish accent? When were you last in Scotland?
#2 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 2:31 pm
I do think Liam Fox has a Scottish accent. I was in Scotland two weeks ago.
*sits and waits for his post to be derailed by a discussion on how Scottish certain politicians’ accents are*
#3 by R.G. Bargie on November 25, 2011 - 2:48 pm
“I do think Liam Fox has a Scottish accent. I was in Scotland two weeks ago.”
Where in Scotland? Liam Fox’s house?
#4 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 3:15 pm
Bearsden, just up the road from I’m sitting right now. Not that that matters.
#5 by Bugger (the Panda) on November 25, 2011 - 7:15 pm
I thought I was the only one from Maryhill here?
#6 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 7:39 pm
Maryhill? I’m from Partick. Get a nose bleed in Barbecue Kings…
#7 by Doug Daniel on November 25, 2011 - 3:49 pm
He does. It’s a posh Scottish accent, but it’s Scottish nonetheless.
#8 by Sandy Brownlee (oldchap) on November 25, 2011 - 2:38 pm
Michael Gove is a Scot as well.
#9 by Malc on November 25, 2011 - 2:42 pm
Malcolm Rifkind too.
#10 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 3:25 pm
Result! Nice one Malc, I thought he had stepped down.
I’ll add him up shortly. 10-5 to the Scots-born Tory BritNats, who’d have thunk it…?
#11 by Bugger (the Panda) on November 25, 2011 - 7:17 pm
Tony Blair, OK he isb’t there any more, but?
#12 by Gavin on November 25, 2011 - 3:07 pm
Mary MacLeod, MP for Brentford and Isleworth. Don’t know where in the UK she was born but she has a Scottish accent
#13 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 3:19 pm
Good shout, born in London apparently.
Getting up to 10 would be good though. Any more?
#14 by DougtheDug on November 25, 2011 - 3:11 pm
Why aren’t we more proud of our Scottish Tories?
In terms of identity I suppose it really depends on whether we think of them as Scottish or even if they think of themselves as Scottish. All Scottish born Conservatives will see their primary identity as British not Scottish just like their Labour compatriots in the HOC.
Where you are born doesn’t always have a bearing on your subsequent identity. Rory Stewart doesn’t think of himself as Hong Kongese and Angus Robertson definitely doesn’t think of himself as English.
In any case since most Scots don’t like their politics why should we feel proud of them even if they do self-identify as Scots or we identify them as Scots?
Another one you’ve missed is Fiona Bruce, Member of Parliament for Congleton, who was born in Wick.
#15 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 3:41 pm
woah woah woah, you simply cannot go around telling people what their “primary” identity is like that.
#16 by DougtheDug on November 25, 2011 - 4:00 pm
I’m not telling anybody anything. It’s based on the evidence of the Conservative and Labour parties’ outright hostility to the SNP plan to consign the national identity of “British” to the history books and to reinstate, “Scottish” as the official national identity of Scots.
What’s your primary identity Aidan? Are you British or Scottish?
#17 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 4:08 pm
That rather depends on context.
#18 by DougtheDug on November 25, 2011 - 4:11 pm
In the context of what passport you want then?
#19 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 4:23 pm
No, in what context I’m asked to consider my identity. I’m not even sure my primary identity is a national one – I think “vaugely punky geek” is it…
#20 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 4:30 pm
Good luck using that to get over the US border…. 😉
#21 by DougtheDug on November 25, 2011 - 4:36 pm
For an activist in a party dedicated to preserving Britain the nation and British the national identity you’re remarkably coy about calling yourself British.
I’m Scottish. I don’t have contexts.
#22 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 5:56 pm
I’m always both Scottish and British.
#23 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 4:12 pm
Also, the idea that the SNP plan is to reassign peoples national identity is pretty disturbing actually…
#24 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 4:15 pm
That’s precisely what their plan is, wrapped up inextricably as it is with the concept of independence. I don’t see what is so disturbing about that.
#25 by DougtheDug on November 25, 2011 - 4:19 pm
It’s been the Scottish national party plan since 1934.
#26 by Indy on November 25, 2011 - 4:27 pm
Why is that disturbing? It is – as Doug suggests – a simple matter of what it says on your passport.
You could be English and be a Scottish national and you could be Scottish and be a UK national.
It’s about where you are domiciled, not where you were born or which accent you speak with. It’s a matter of choice.
I remember a really interesting programme on the radio about this, years and years ago, they were interviewing English people in Scotland about whether they felt English or Scottish. And they spoke to Terry Butcher who of course lives in Scotland and is like the most English person in the world, a veritable icon of Englishness. And he said of course I’ll always be English but I live here now and if Scotland becomes independent I don’t care. He said I’m English, my children are Scottish and that doesn’t bother me at all.
#27 by An Duine Gruamach on November 25, 2011 - 5:09 pm
It’s funny that only Scottish identity can exist without a state, and British identity can’t. I’m sure there are people who think of themselves as Scandinavians or West Indians (or Slavs, Yugoslavians etc.).
#28 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 5:56 pm
Because it’s dangerously close to claiming that you can only be Scottish if you support Independence.
#29 by Indy on November 25, 2011 - 6:31 pm
Eh?
Jeff is asking why aren’t we more proud of our Scottish Tories (in Westminster) and the answer, as far as I am concerned, is why should we be?
Doesn’t matter if they were born in Scotland or speak with a Scottish accent, they are Tories who stood in English seats and were elected by English people. Nothing wrong with that – but why should it matter to me if they happen to have come from Scotland?
That fact clearly does not define who they are, given that they have chosen to make their lives outside of Scotland. And, again, there is nothing wrong with that. But as Doug points out it certainly shows that their primary identity is not Scottish – otherwise they would be standing for election in Scotland wouldn’t they?
How you get from that to saying that anyone is claiming you can only be Scottish if you support independence is a mystery.
#30 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 6:44 pm
Because the origional claim was “All Scottish born Conservatives will see their primary identity as British not Scottish just like their Labour compatriots in the HOC.”
which says nothing about where their constituency is. And even if you do limit it to “people standing in constituencies outside Scotland” there are any number of reasons why people leave Scotland but you, Doug or Jeff have absolutely no right to try and deny them their Scottishness.
#31 by Stephen O'Donnell on November 25, 2011 - 3:13 pm
I don’t think JK Rowling was born in Scotland.
How about party leaders?
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown
Ian Duncan Smith
John Smith
Charlie Kennedy
Menzies Campbell
Not forgetting of course that David Cameron’s family seat is in Aberdeenshire.
Let’s not even start on the judiciary, Metropolitan Police or the media!
#32 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 3:22 pm
Quite a list Stephen, plenty for Scotland to have a swagger about there. I was going to mention Lord George Robertson too, Sec General of Nato I believe, which isn’t bad going at all. I decided to keep a Tory focus, but you make a good, broader point.
And I probably shouldn’t have mentioned “union dividend” as my angle was very much a Scottish civic pride, which is curiously absent for many of these figures.
#33 by DougtheDug on November 25, 2011 - 3:52 pm
plenty for Scotland to have a swagger about there
To be quite honest as a Scot I wouldn’t have a swagger about any of them especially Brown and Blair who were the architects of new Labour and up to their necks on Iraq an Afghanistan.
I don’t like Ian Duncan Smith or his politics, Charles Kennedy was forced out of his job because of his love of the bottle, Menzies Campbell is a man who can sound authoritative about anything while saying nothing, George Robertson dreamed of killing nationalism, “stone dead”, and is another Labour man who has ended up as a Lord and John Smith was leader of a party which has shown itself to be ignorantly oppositional in Scotland.
More of a rogues gallery I’d say.
#34 by Jon on November 25, 2011 - 3:25 pm
If you have nothing to say sir, best say nothing well.
#35 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 3:32 pm
An ironic comment, if ever there was one…
#36 by Mr. Housden on November 25, 2011 - 3:26 pm
Isn’t J.K. Rowling English but lives in Scotland? Sorry to be a pedant…
#37 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 3:29 pm
Yep, my mistake there. All I was trying to do was bring in some gender balance.
I overreached.
#38 by Benjamin on November 25, 2011 - 3:32 pm
Do we really ‘go bananas for Andy Murray and JK Rowling and Billy Connolly and Annie Lennox by dint of their birthplace alone’? I always find it interesting how people often talk about ‘place of birth’ as the determing factor of being Scottish, English or whatever, because that’s not the main criteria we actually use to place people *in practice*. We don’t usually know where people were born unless they tell us, yet we usually manage to make some presumption as to their national identity before that.
How many people realise that Iain Duncan Smith was born in Edinburgh? He’s not usually perceived as Scottish because he hasn’t lived in Scotland since before he started primary school. For the same reasons, I’ve always found it absurd when commentators refer to Mike Russell as ‘English’.
#39 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 3:46 pm
A fair point, I would wager though that we go bananas for personalities based on where we ‘think’ they are born, which is arguably worse than favouring them based on where they are actually born.
Look at the hoo-ha over Sir Chris Hoy at the last Olympics and compare it to similar achievements from sports people across the world who we, relatively speaking, didn’t bat an eyelid at (Usain Bolt an exception of course). There’s nothing wrong with it, it’s a good thing infact, but I just wonder why it doesn’t seem to extend to Tories born in Scotland or politicians as a whole for that matter.
#40 by Del on November 25, 2011 - 3:49 pm
To answer your question, because birthplace is meaningless. I have a friend, parents are white Trinidadians, born in Singapore, raised in Dubai and Jakarta, moved to Australia as a teenager. He considers himself Australian and some times Trinidadian, but never Singaporean.
Why are Indians not more proud of Cliff Richard? He was born there.
#41 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 3:55 pm
I reckon you’ve hit on something there Derek.
Scots are generally very proud of Rod Stewart who isn’t really very Scottish at all when you look into it, but Rod plays up to it which may be the dealbreaker. Andy Murray too, of course, plays up to being Scottish (though gets a fair bit of grief for it as a result, unfairly in my view) despite training for almost the entirety of his career outside of Scotland. Not much for Scots to be proud of there when it comes to our tennis training pedigree; Catalans have arguably more claim to Andy Murray’s sporting success than we do.
Maybe politicians can’t play up to their Scottishness as they are not entertainers first and foremost (as Andy and Rod and indeed Cliff Richard are). Liam Fox wearing a pair of Saltire sweatbands would be laughed out the room but for Andy Murray, we swoon with delight. (Or I do at least).
I wouldn’t go as far as you do and say that birthplace is meaningless. There wouldn’t be a Tartan Army for a start if that was true, but ‘birthplace’ is certainly malleable for some more than it is for others.
#42 by Manny on November 25, 2011 - 3:49 pm
“Why aren’t we more proud of our Scottish Tories?”
It’s because they’re Tories. This may come as a shock but generally speaking, the Tories aren’t well thought of in Scotland.
#43 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 3:59 pm
I think snooker is as dull as ditchwater and the quickest way to a Vitamin D deficiency but I’m still chuffed on behalf of John Higgins and Stephen Hendry and would want them to win over whoever they’re playing.
Or X-Factor even. I think that show is as harmful to society as anything that the Tories are getting up to but I was still rooting for the MacDonald Brothers back in the day. (I couldn’t tell you if there’s a Scot on it now to be fair, but I want them to win if there is)
Shouldn’t it be the same for politics? We might not care for the nature of what they’re doing but we can still be proud that they are at the top of their chosen tree?
#44 by Doug Daniel on November 25, 2011 - 4:13 pm
The thing is, in the grand scheme of things snooker and the X Factor don’t really matter. A snooker player or X Factor contestant are unlikely to ruin people’s lives (I agree the X Factor has a detrimental effect, but the only lives it actually ruins are those who go on it). Politics, on the other hand, affects everybody’s lives. The Tories are harmful, they’re using the economic difficulties as an excuse to make ideological cuts (making it easier to sack people will get the economy going? Aye, whatever!) and these have a detrimental effect on millions of people’s lives.
I’m not proud of the fact that some of these people who have scaled the greasy pole are Scottish; I’m ashamed of the fact that some of my apparent countrymen would do these things.
(Incidentally, no one from Scotland is in the X Factor this year – a wee lassie from Fife almost got through, but got snubbed before the live shows. And snooker is ace!)
#45 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 4:40 pm
Well, let’s not pretend there aren’t people who are virtually unsackable out there that contribute virtually zero in their workplace, public and private. ‘Employment squatting’ isn’t something to aspire to, surely, so I wouldn’t want to suggest that every last thing that the Conservatives put forward is bad.
But yes, there are ideological differences there but Tory MPs and Ministers are largely there on merit and are there democratically so that commands a certain respect I’d have thought, even pride, even if you nor I will actually vote for any of them. (I might vote for Boris next year though, to be totally honest).
And I would disagree that the only lives damaged by X-factor are those that go on it. It’s not even the sapping of peoples’ IQs and motivations when they watch the show, but poor saps like me who deliberately shun everything associated with it get regularly ambushed by adverts (the M&S one is particularly grating) showcasing the singing ‘talent’.
#46 by Angus McLellan on November 25, 2011 - 4:24 pm
When J.M. Barrie had one of his characters say that “there are few more impressive sights in the world than a Scotsman on the make” I don’t think “impressive” was supposed to be a synonym for “good” or “praiseworthy”. So, pride may not be the most appropriate sentiment.
#47 by Jeff on November 25, 2011 - 4:30 pm
Wise words. I purposefully didn’t extend my ‘Scottish pride’ call to arms to Fred Goodwin…
There is a line after all.
#48 by Doug Daniel on November 25, 2011 - 3:52 pm
“Why aren’t we more proud of our Scottish Tories?”
Because they’re Tories?
#49 by scottish_skier on November 25, 2011 - 5:12 pm
If Scotland becomes independent, I think some Tories should be kept for novelty value. I find them quite cute in their own wee Tory way. They’re relatively harmless as long as they’re not in power.
I personally find it hilarious when they do stuff like burn effigies and EU flags; provides both entertainment and reminds us why we shouldn’t ever seriously consider voting for them.
#50 by Craig Gallagher on November 25, 2011 - 5:24 pm
I have a couple of problems with this argument. The first is that you seem to be suggesting there’s something democratic in politicians moving around the country in order to enhance their electoral prospects. The fact that there are so many Scots standing for English constituencies is surely something to be ashamed of, given how annoyed many of us would be with English Tories – or indeed, Labour or Liberal members – camping out in safe Scottish seats in order to ensure they made it into Parliament next time.
The second is that your concept of “Scottish” is rather woeful and out of date. As the last five years of civic nationalism and its ascendency ought to have demonstrated to you, to be Scottish is to live here and aspire to work towards a better Scotland for all, whether through the independence or labour movements. That counts far more than whether your birth certificate says “East Kilbride” or “Wick” or wherever .
Lastly, I object to the notion we should be proud and happy at the influence we have in the Union, just because so many of our politicians climb the greasy pole. This is a position that both ignores and perpetuates historical stereotypes. It is no surprise that Scots are predominant in the Establishment parties, we have always been. We’re a highly political people possessed of a rare ruthlessness and this is reflected in the number of high-profile statesmen we’ve furnished over the years relative to our population.
At the same time, to even imply that this is an adequate substitution for independence is to get at the heart of the problem with unionism. The issue isn’t so much Britain as the British Establishment, and those politicians who succeed to the higher echelons of Labour and the Tories inevitably are of the arch-Unionist types. I am not proud of those Scottish MPs in the Tory party who wield such influence. Rather, I am disdainful of the fact that they have joined an institution so determinedly hostile to what I believe to be Scotland’s best interests and have had to leave Scotland, admitting that their policies might be unpopular there, in order to do so.
#51 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 6:17 pm
So you can only be Scottish you have to be involved in either independence or labour politics?
Really?
#52 by Indy on November 25, 2011 - 6:40 pm
Aidanyou are trying to make this much more complicated and perhaps sinister than it really is.
Who is a Scottish politician? Someone who is elected to represent a constituency or a region in Scotland.
That’s it. Doesn’t matter where they were born or what accent they have – if they represent Scottish voters they are a Scottish politician (even if they are English by birth and upbringing). And if they represent English voters they’re an English politician (even if they are Scottish by birth and upbringing).
Simples.
#53 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 6:51 pm
” to be Scottish is to live here and aspire to work towards a better Scotland for all, whether through the independence or labour movements.” is pretty sinister.
If you don’t live in Scotland you’re not Scottish?
#54 by Craig Gallagher on November 25, 2011 - 7:23 pm
Sinister is a bit dramatic. I was trying to stress that birthplace is immaterial to being Scottish, and given that I currently live in Boston, Massachusetts, I’m hardly likely to argue that residence is a requirement, am I?
As to the “independence or labour movements”, that was actually a generalisation that was determined to avoid discord by suggesting only Nationalists are Scottish. I don’t believe that. You can be Scottish and be a Nationalist or a unionist, Catholic or Presbyterian, Highlander or Lallander (or Islander), Better Nation blogger or entirely apolitical.
To be Scottish is to choose to be. That’s all I meant.
#55 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 8:24 pm
Right, so if Liam Fox says he’s Scottish – which he does – then you’re happy him being Scottish?
(Also, what about the various English-born members of the SNP? Are they “camping out”?)
#56 by Craig Gallagher on November 25, 2011 - 8:54 pm
If Liam Fox thinks he’s Scottish, then he is Scottish. I am happy for him to have the liberty to feel that way, while at the same time stressing to anyone who asks me that I genuinely don’t believe his views represent the nation of Scotland as I conceive it.
As to the various English-born members of the SNP, you’d have to ask them but I imagine most would say they feel Scottish, hence why they’re standing in Scotland and not England. If Mr. Fox feels Scottish, why doesn’t he have a run at a Scottish seat? Because he knows he won’t get elected as voters generally don’t share his party’s worldview. Nothing wrong with that unless he starts to declare that he speaks for Scotland, is using Scotland’s voice on the world stage (which of course he hasn’t done, nor has any Tory/Lib Dem MP not currently occupying a Scottish seat)
#57 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 9:22 pm
So being Scottish, like all positive identities, is something which is claimed by someone and cannot be denied by reasonable people? Good.
Of course not all people who are of some particular identity agree with each other – that doesn’t give them a right to yell “I cast thee out!” and banish them from a national identity. We abolished exile as a punishment a long time ago…
#58 by Craig Gallagher on November 25, 2011 - 9:30 pm
I would partially agree with your first statement. I could start claiming I’m a Bostonian (or, as the colloquialism goes around here, a “Masshole”) and people could reasonably deny it, given my Scots brogue and bewilderment at how traffic laws are flouted here, but they couldn’t stop me claiming it, and I doubt they would object to my right to claim it, should I want to.
As to exile, I agree fully. But to your implicit point, I generally feel you are being uncharitable in saying the SNP is excluding anyone not a Nationalist from being Scottish. I would say the contrary is true, that they are saying anyone not a Nationalist is Scottish and should wake up and realise what means. Whether you agree with that or not is another matter, but I have never felt that Scottish Nationalism as understood in terms of the SNP and the independence movement has been exclusionary.
#59 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 9:51 pm
Boston’s a city dear to my heart, and if you live there, support the Sox and whoever’s playing the Yankees and get angry when pedestrians get in your way when you’re turning right and they’re crossing the road just because there’s a flashing cross sign then I reckon they’d happily include you.
My implicit point about exile was purely a reaction to what I understood were you and Indy’s rather exclusionary definitions of Scottishness. If you’re happy with an inclusive self-identification we’re all friends here and next time I’ve some time in Boston I’ll get you for a drink in Charlie’s Kitchen 😉
#60 by Craig Gallagher on November 25, 2011 - 9:56 pm
Haha, I support the Sox by default of not having a baseball team prior to moving here in the summer, and yes, I do get rather infuriated with pedestrians and other drivers alike on Comm Ave and elsewhere. An all-inclusive discussion of nationalism over a drink in the Kitchen would be very welcome! 🙂
#61 by Chris on November 25, 2011 - 5:47 pm
Type your comment here
I think it is ignorant and offensive to proclaim that all Scots born Conservatives and Labour (politicians? supporters?) will see themselves primarily as British. How can you know that?
This sounds like you are saying that only true Scots believe in Independence.
#62 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 6:18 pm
That wasn’t me that said that, that was Dougthedug, I agree it’s an ignorant and offensive view.
#63 by Barbarian on November 25, 2011 - 7:01 pm
Erm, better not mention Andy Murray on a Scottish political blog, or any other sportsperson who dares to wear the Union flag. Some people consider them to be a traitor / heretic / Spawn of the Devil / Lib Dem………..
#64 by Chris on November 25, 2011 - 7:03 pm
Sorry Aidan, I was keying one-handed with a baby in my hand
#65 by Aidan on November 25, 2011 - 7:41 pm
No worries, figured as much – more clarifying for observors than anything else 🙂
#66 by Alex grant on November 25, 2011 - 7:13 pm
As has already been said we (the majority who never vote Tory) aren’t proud of them because we don’t like their politics and principles. And secondly when did you ever hear any of the non Nationalist Scots Westminster MP’s defending or promoting Scotland in Parliament?? I won’t say never but it’s rare. Comments of the ‘Who Cares’ variety (and yes I know that was Labour) are more likely!
So… what’s to be proud of????
#67 by scottish_skier on November 25, 2011 - 7:14 pm
RE ‘Scottishness’ of politicians
I guess a simple test would be to have said politician stand up in a packed House of Commons with the cameras rolling and proudly state ‘I am Scottish first and foremost’.
I recall Gordon Brown as a classic example of UK politician who had some trouble with that, which I assume was because he considered himself ‘British’ first with Scottish relegated to 2nd place?
#68 by Zoe Smith on November 25, 2011 - 7:15 pm
Tories or not, I’m proud as I am proud of all my fellow Europeans…..
😀
#69 by Richard Lucas on November 25, 2011 - 7:15 pm
I’m a Yorkshireman, my wife is Dutch, my children are Scottish, we’ve lived in Fife for over 20 years. I have family members of a variety of nationalities spread across a number of continents, Dutch, German, Aussie, NZ, US, Canadian. It doesn’t matter at all where people come from. I was proud of my MP, Dave Hinchcliffe, when I lived in Wakefield. He was a principled hard-working MP. I was proud of him because he was a good representative and a credit to the city. He was Labour, and he was Yorkshire, but neither of those where the reasons I supported him. The fact was that he was a man you’d want to have representing you
#70 by Bugger (the Panda) on November 25, 2011 - 7:22 pm
Seasonal question here,
If you are born in a stable, does that make you a horse?
#71 by Barbarian on November 25, 2011 - 7:44 pm
I just thought of something else but I am not even going to attempt it! There’s a limit to colourful language!
#72 by Indy on November 25, 2011 - 11:04 pm
Aidan I would never deny anyone the right to be whatever they want – if someone identifies their primary identity as Klingon that’s fine by me.
But I think we are reaching a level of unreality when people start suggesting that politicians who represent English seats should be able to be Scottish politicians. They aren’t. The first duty of any politician is to represent their constituents – everything else is secondary to that and since we are talking about politcians here that is what their primary identity is. There would in fact be something very wrong with someone representing English constituents who saw themselves first and foremost as a Scottish politician.
This seems so obvious to me I am surprised it even needs saying.
#73 by Aidan on November 26, 2011 - 3:19 pm
If you define “Scottish politicians” as “politicians who represent Scottish constituencies” then no, they are not.
But if you define it as “Scottish people who are politicians” then they are – that’s the crux of the issue.
#74 by Indy on November 27, 2011 - 9:21 am
No, the crux of the issue is that politicians are not the same as famous sportspeople or other celebrities. They are not “personalities” in that sense – their basic function is to represent the people, that is what defines them.
#75 by Aidan on November 27, 2011 - 12:18 pm
So by doing so they somehow become “un-Scottish”, all their personal history is rendered meaningless by their job?
#76 by Indy on November 28, 2011 - 10:11 am
I really don’t know why you are pressing this point.
Why do you think for example that Labour are re-organising themselves to become “more Scottish”? Is it because all Labour MSPs/MPs/MEPs are Scottish by birth and upbringing and therefore “feel” Scottish? No. It is because they represent Scottish constituencies and Scottish voters.
None of the MPs listed by Jeff represent Scottish constituencies so in what sense could they possibly be Scottish politicians? They aren’t, it’s as simple as that.
Whether or not they “feel” Scottish is something that is unknown. I don’t know whether James Gray or Michael Fallon feel Scottish any more than I know whether they are vegetarians or go jogging or love the works of Jane Austen. Why would I? And what does it matter?
#77 by Observer on November 26, 2011 - 11:03 am
Extremely bizarre post from Jeff. They are not ”our” Tories, because they had to go to England to get elected. So how can they be ”our” Tories when the Tories are acknowledged even by themselves to be a toxic brand in Scotland?
The only pride I feel is that they all had leave Scotland to find people who would vote for them, as they couldn’t find them here.
Just because something or someone is Scottish doesn’t make it or them something we should automatically feel proud of.
The Bay City Rollers were Scottish, so are the Krankies, I don’t feel proud of them either.
#78 by Jeff on November 26, 2011 - 11:23 am
Andy Murray had to go to Barcelona to get good at tennis, does that make it strange (using your logic) that Scotland considers him ‘ours’.
I quite like The Crankies, and the Bay City Rollers.
#79 by Craig Gallagher on November 26, 2011 - 7:20 pm
In fairness, I kind of understand Jeff’s logic. As a fellow ex-pat, there is a tendency to see someone who came from Scotland and feel proud that they are making a splash on the world stage, even if they haven’t lived there for some time. Andy Murray, David McAllister, Franz Ferdinand, Craig Ferguson, Bon Scott, even JK Rowling by association.
There’s a sense when you’re abroad that it’s great to see your country punching above its weight, particularly because so many people identify it as just an extension of England.
#80 by Observer on November 26, 2011 - 6:11 pm
I think you have to look at the word pride Jeff.
Are you proud of someone just because they are Scottish? Ian Brady was Scottish, he went to my former school, Shawlands Academy. We pupils were most emphatically not proud about that.
That is an extreme example, I am not comparing the Tories to serial killers, however I do question whether people have pride in Scottish politicians getting elected outside Scotland, standing on policies which are not popular in Scotland, just because they are Scottish.
It’s not something to take pride in really, which is why we don’t generally do it.
#81 by JPJ2 on November 27, 2011 - 5:17 pm
As has been pointed out, J K Rowling was not born in Scotland though she currently, and for some time, has lived in Scotland.
In political terms, it is clear that she supports the Labour Party, as she announced (2008) that she was giving £1 million to the Labour Party.
How fittingly ironic, from my perspective, that (I reasonably assume) although this £1m was given by someone living in Scotland to help a Scots-born Prime Minister (Brown), this money went to the central coffers of the Labour Party and not to the “Scottish” Labour Party.
Now that’s the sort of union dividend of which I wholeheartedly approve 🙂
#82 by James Morton on November 27, 2011 - 5:37 pm
Why don’t we celebrate Tories? Because they’re unpopular – their politics is unpopular – you don’t celebrate or honour people who are unpopular. You can name figures from sports, the media, authors, scientists – people who have achieved greatness. They should be celebrated and rightly so. But what would the dedication to a statue of Michael Forsyth read? “Michael Forsyth – Couldn’t have been more wrong if he tried” – “Most hated man in Scotland”?
If politicians make a real splash it’s because they did something momentous or achieved something that made a real difference to peoples lives, that could merit some recognition – or they did something so obnoxious and reprehensible that most folk would regard them as persona non-grata and certainly not cause for celebration. You would more celebrate kicking them out of power.
So a statue to the Tories could read:
“Scottish Conservatism – use before 1955”
#83 by AliMiller on November 27, 2011 - 7:44 pm
Personally I find the notion that just because something/someone is “Scottish” that it/they merit(s) our support/pride a bit cringeworthy.
As mentioned earlier, Andy Murray is doing something innocuous, playing tennis, either winning or losing, nothing to object about. Win or lose we have an affinity because he is there at a high level doing something honest (trying to win).
I suppose these MPs should be commended for reaching such high office. Beyond that, it isnt so simple. Andy Murray is trying to win games of tennis, thats simple. But what are these MPs intentions? What they trying to acheive? Whether one believes that there actions and intentions are good is based on one’s ideology.
And there we reach the heart of the matter, what many others in this discussion have pointed out, which is that they are pursuing agendas contrarary to Scottish public opinion. Fox spearheaded the “patient passport” policy which was the precursor to this Primary Care Consortia+Secondary Care Marketisation reform. He is also anti-abortion and has many other right wing views. Gove seems a bit less harmful but his free-schools reform is of the same school of thought as the NHS reforms, which is to fragment integrated public service institutions and create a market.
So nothing much to cheer about there.